White smoke on start 8V92TA

[Brian Long]

I have an 87 Newell and on start it smokes white. It clears up as it warms up. I have driven the coach very little since I bought it and it was in the shop for weeks having some work done, I am sure they started it and let it idle for some period of time. I searched the archives but did not find much help so any information would be appreciated.
Brian

[fulltiming]

What was the outside temperature? White smoke when the engine is cold is typically unburned fuel but it can be caused by moisture in the cylinder head. Is the engine cranking as fast as normal? Sometimes a slow cranking engine resulting from low batteries can leave extra fuel in the cylinder heads that can't all burn until it warms up.

[Richard and Rhonda]

"I have driven the coach very little since I bought it"

You need to get your priorities realigned. Just kidding.

Seriously, Michael is right, white smoke is unburned diesel. Get that Detroit out and get the cobwebs out of it :-)

[Brian Long]

The batteries, starter and cables are new, the temperature at start was about 50 degrees. The engine had the R/H cylinder head and turbo replaced along with "pop testing" the injectors 10K ago by the previous owner, the engine now has 147K on it. The coach had been sitting for 2 months undergoing cosmetic repairs and was run at an idle only. Prior to that the coach sat for 6 months. It seems to run well but I would like to track down this white smoke problem. I do not think it has used any coolant over the last 3k miles. Should I take it for a long drive to clear it out and then if it continues to smoke, on start, what steps should be taken?
Brian

[Richard and Rhonda]

I think it better if the 2 stroke gurus weighed in, but IF it is not loosing coolant, then the smoke is just unburned diesel. You might have a DD mechanic "run the rack", that is adjust the valve and injector clearances.

How much white smoke? Barely see it, and it clears in a couple of minutes, OR obscures the neighborhood and lasts for 10 minutes? Something in between?

[fulltiming]

If the white smoke isn't too bad and clears up fairly quickly, I would take that puppy out, let it warm up, then drive the pants off of it. Then see if it still turns out white smoke the next day. In the auto industry that would be considered an Italian tuneup and the 2-stroke Detroit's respond to the same treatment.

[Brian Long]

The smoke does appear to clear out probably in a few miles and until it does staying out of the throttle controls it. Once it is warmed up it runs clean. I will put on some fresh fuel and give it a run. I do think the previous owner worked on the rack and while he was very mechanical it may not be set perfectly.
Brian

[prarieschooner]

How old is the Fuel? If the Fuel is old it could contribute to problems with these older 2 Stroke Diesels.
When I purchased my '82 after it wasn't used for an extended period of time I purchased a case of Fuel Filters to help solve these types of problems. I simply changed the Fuel Filter every few hours of operation, this may or not help. Changing the Fuel Filter will help keep any contamination from organisms out of the Fuel System while you use up the old Fuel. The other alternative is to have the Fuel Tanks Drained and Cleaned, which would be advisable if the Fuel is really bad (where was the Coach when you bought it). I agree with the others "use the puppy" take the Newell out for a ride and get new Fuel. Take the Coach out and get the Diesel warm for a few hours these old gals need to be operated and not just around town. Check another post stating that you should "drive it like you stole it", it may help. Our '82 is running much better after logging almost 1500 miles and getting better.
By the way there is a group of Newells going to Creede, CO in August, great excuse to go somewhere

[Brian Long]

I just just had the coach serviced, all filters were changed and the water separator was drained and was free of water. After reading the threads I want to drain the oil cannister. I just want to make sure the white smoke is not water related. The fuel is old but does have bio and anti-gel additives. This weekend I will put on some fresh fuel and go for a drive.
Brian

[prarieschooner]

I agree, better safe then sorry.

[prarieschooner]

Brian,
After giving this some more thoughts I was thinking that you may want to get some of the Fluids Analyzed. There has been some previous discussion about this and I feel that it could be invaluable as a Preventative Maintenance Tool. I had the Fluids from the 6V92 Detroit, Allison Transmission, Kohler Generator and both Radiators Analyzed before purchasing.
This type of program is offered by Heavy Equipment Repair Stations. I bought my Kits from Johnson Caterpillar in Riverside, CA. They sold me the Oil Analysis for less than $20.00 each and I think the Pump was about $35.00-$40.00. The Pump is a Manual Vacuum Type and the Samples go into the pre-purchased Sample Bottles (sold as the Oil Analysis). You use a piece of Tubing that is inserted into the Equipment to be Analyzed and then the Vacuum Pump withdraws the Fluid into the Bottle (the Tubing is not re-used to keep from contaminating the sample). The Sample Bottle is then Mailed to the Lab for the Analysis and they E-Mail the report within a few days.
I would suggest that you have the Oil in the Detroit and the Radiator Coolant tested. This would help you know what is going on inside the Engine. I suggest the Radiator Coolant to help identify any issue with Head Gaskets.
The other check that you could make is to use the Block Heater to keep the Diesel from getting Cold. Most likely there would not be any white smoke if the Block Heater was used prior to starting the Detroit.
Having said all of this the white smoke may simply be unburnt Fuel and quite normal.

[encantotom]

fluid analysis is a great indicator. i have it done as well. that said, i would offer a few personal experiences to augment what steve has said in the previous post.

the initial analysis is going to give you if there is anything wrong immediately. the ones after that are going to give you a wear history and will become increasingly more valuable from an analysis perspective.

as far as how to take the samples, i have always been told to take them from a steady flow from the drain plug and not to draw them out with a pump. i dont know who is right, but i can tell you when i had the antifreeze in the engine oil from the cracked head, that i pulled an oil sample from the dipstick and it showed no VISUAL indication of antifreeze, though an analysis would have, and when i pulled a sample from the drain plug it gave a different visual picture. when i change the oil on mine, i take the sample from the full initial stream after a few seconds.

thats my 2 cents worth and i am sticking to it....(i love that saying wally)

i prebuy the sample bottles from the local CAT dealer and take them there for analysis. takes a day and they email the results.

tom

[tuga]

At what mileage intervals do you guys change oil?

What kind of oil do you use?

[zcasa]

Hey Tuga, 15,000 miles or one year whichever occurs first. In my case, it has been at yearly intervals. I use Delo 100 40w. My coach 303 has had many oil changes using synthetic Mobil as well. It is a two cycle. You, no doubt, will use different oil in your DD-60 engine.

David

[Wally Arntzen]

I do every other oil change myself and do not take a sample during my change.The other change is done by my friendly Bus repair garage and they take the sample when the oil is draining from the pan. I have watched them put a sample bottle under the flow and clean it up after they put the cap on.
Thats it my friends, pretty easy, uncomplicated, end of subject.

Wally

[tuga]

Hey Tuga, 15,000 miles or one year whichever occurs first. In my case, it has been at yearly intervals. I use Delo 100 40w. My coach 303 has had many oil changes using synthetic Mobil as well. It is a two cycle. You, no doubt, will use different oil in your DD-60 engine.

David

I change my oil & filter every 15,000 miles and use Mobil Delvac 1 synthetic 5W40.

Some people use regular oil (like 40W) and change it every 5,000 miles. I have heard comments about the advantages of doing it this way because changing the oil removes the sulfuric acid from the system.

I just do it the way Newell recommends.

[prarieschooner]

I have always extracted the sample using a Vacuum Pump that was purchased for this purpose. The reason is simple, on a Boat the Oil is not Drained but Sucked out using some sort of Pump to keep from contaminating the Bilge. I always make sure that the Samples are withdrawn after Sea Trials in order to get an Acurate Sample (I need to make sure that I am not pulling the Sample from the Bottom of the Pan).
I think that we area all doing the same thing just a little different. The concern that I would have is to let the Fluid Run for a bit to ensure an Acurate Sample of what is being Circulated. I agree with the rest of you in that the Lab Results help to identify future Concerns and are relatively inexpensive when you look at the Cost of our Machines.

[Brian Long]

I want to thank the board for the great responses I received from my posting about "white smoke on start". I drained the oil canister today and there was no water only black oil, about a quart. The outside air temperature was 85 degrees and the coach started immediately with no smoke. I think my smoke problem was unburned fuel from idling in the shop while it was being worked on and cool temperatures. The short drive home evidently burned off the fuel. I think it may be worthwhile to find some one who really knows the fuel system and have the rack checked. I am going to "drive it like I stole it" tomorrow.
Brian
87 37' Newell Classic

[Richard and Rhonda]

Brian,

How is the engine running after getting the soot out of it?

Here is a post from another forum about smoking on startup......http://www.busconversions.com/bbs/index.php?topic=12303.0

[Brian Long]

Richard,
Thanks for your follow up. I have not been able to get the coach out as I discovered I have no brake lights. With the warmer weather it does not appear to be as bad as it was. I am electrically challenged but have begun looking into the problem. Steve posted his experience and since the GM steering column was loose internally I got that fixed and put in a new turn signal/hazard warning switch as that was his problem and Newell agreed it was good starting place. I am going to look at the brake light switch next. I will let you know as soon as I get a road trip in to clean out the soot.
Brian
87 37' Classic 8V92TA HT740

[prarieschooner]

Brian,
BLOCK the Coach before you go under it!!! The Brake Light Switch on our '82 is up front and I think that the wires are Yellow with Red. I make a simple Jumper and just Jumper-ed between the Terminals of the Switch. This allowed me to prove the Problem was Electrical and is much easier than trying to have someone inside the Coach with a foot on the Brake Pedal with Air Pressure.
I was able to prove the Relays in the Back Panel by using the same Jumper (short length of #16 wire with Alligator Clips on each end) by Energizing the Right Side and then the Left Side but if you have Turn signals then these Relays are functioning.
I then was able to isolate the problem to my Steering Column. I was able to bypass the Emergency Flasher and prove that I had found the problem before I ordered the replacement part.
A word of Caution!!! A wire on the new Switch Assembly made contact with the Housing when it was installed. This created a Short and I still had no Brake Lights! It was a simple fix once I found the Burnt Fuse and pulled the Steering Wheel again, just bend the wires out of the the way. Just be cautious when you install the Switch Assembly and make sure that the New Wires do not contact the Steering Column or Housing (I would probably just use an Ohm Meter and check all of the Wires for a Short to Ground after the Install and prior to Connecting the Wires.
I just added a picture of the Rear Panel showing the Position of the Tail Light Relays.