Michelin 365 tire upgrade newell and prevost coaches?

[afrench45]

I took my coach up to Miami last week to have a few minor items fixed. Newell called today and said all was good except my front tires. They said the tires that were on it were natorious for having blowouts and needed to be changed. They said they could put new 315 on it or I could upgrade to the 365 for a big chunk of change. What should I do?

[fulltiming]

Have you weighed your coach with full fuel and water and the 'stuff' you normally carry yet? That is truly the only way to know the correct answer. The upgrade for your coach is $3,800 including the new front tires and new wider wheels. The 315's that are on your coach have a capacity of 9,080 pounds per tire at 130 psi. The 365's have a capacity of 10,500 pounds per tire at 125 psi. Newell recommends a max cruising speed of 65 mph if you stay with the 315's and 75 if you go to the wider wheels and tires.

Additional information:
The primary benefit to the 365/70 is the extra safety margin on coaches with a very heavy front end. As larger and more slides have been added to coaches, the weight load on the front axle has increased dramatically. During the mid to late 1990's, Newell put Goodyear 315/80R22.5 Load Range J on the front axle. In 1997, when slides were added, front axle weights took a bump up. So Newell changed to Load Range L but immediately began experiencing steer axle tire failure with both Goodyears and Bridgestones. These tires started exhibiting tread separation so on recall, Newell replaced these tires with Michelin Load Range L tires. Most of the problems were resolved by switching to the Michelins. Newell recommended running 130 psi but increasing that to 140 psi for summer high speed cruising, replacement every 3 years and avoiding speeds over 75 mph for the 315's. Currently, Newell is suggesting that the 315's not be run for extended periods over 65 mph.

The 315's can run on either 8.25 or 9" rims. The 365's are recommended for 10-1/2" rims. The 315's are 12.5" wide and the 365's are 14.3" wide.

Summer high temperature and the heat caused by running at high speeds affect tire dependability. If your front tires are running close to their maximum load carrying capacity, then changing up to the larger wheels and tires is recommended. That is why knowing the weight of your coach by tire position is so important. If you don't know the weights by tire position, I would call Newell and ask them to weigh it and let you know so you can make an informed decision. I have had Newell weigh my coach on two occasions.

[afrench45]

I'm not to concerned with the weight because typically we don't have anything to heavy. The speed was my concern because on average I run about 76. I'm usually ok until my smart-tire goes off. Then I have to slow down to about 65. I had to run 65 from Oklahoma City to Miami at 6:00 p.m. Because the tires were running about 175.

[fulltiming]

If your tires are inflated to 130 psi + cold and running that hot, and you are running that fast during the summer, the larger tires and wheels may be needed. Weight is always important since depending on the layout of the coach, the front end may not have all that much carrying capacity. Historically, most of the Prevost and Newell coaches, especially with salon slides run pretty heavy in the front compared to their front axle weight rating. A front mounted generator adds to that weight. Blue Bird Wanderlodge had to retrofit a number of their more recent models because they came from the factory with overloaded front ends, even empty.

[afrench45]

I've decided I'm going to go ahead and spend the extra $3200 and get the 365 simply for my familys safety while driving. Plus whenever I sell my coach, I can have them put on my new coach.

[encantotom]

do you have the part number and make of the new aluminum wheels you purchased from newell? i am just curious as to why it cost 3200 dollars for 2 wheels and 2 tires. i would be interested in looking at how much they are locally instead of paying newell that kind of money?

[rheavn]

Each coach cost can be different based on the coach year. The least expensive sounds like what little afrench45 is having done which is 2 new wider aluminum wheels, 2 new 365 Michelin tires AND 2 new wider and repainted front fender skirts.

On my coach the 365 tire upgrade was $5800. I would get everything above plus my coach has 1 1/16" wheel studs that have to be machined down to 7/8" and rethreaded. The machining is $2,000. Not sure why wheels could not be drilled larger. The larger studs were used for a few years. When Newell went to the independent front suspension in about late '96 or '97 the engineers felt the 1 1/16 wheel studs were needed. At some point around 2000 the Newell engineers backed the wheel studs off to 7/8". 7/8" wheel studs have been used since including 2011 coaches. At this point I can not justify the upgrade as I have weighed my coach and I am well within the 315 weight rating, I run about 63 mph normally and I keep them inflated to 130 psi. I also check the cruising temperatures when I'm on the road and seldom see temperatures above 130 psi.

Prevosts have gone to the 365s on the front and tag axle.

afrench45,
Listening to how you use your coach and the tire temps you are experiencing I think you're making a wise decision. Remember though if your front tires are needing to be replaced anyway the cost of the upgrade is cut in half, while your margin of safety is increased considerably. My advice to every one, based on personal experience, is to avoid a front end blow out at ANY cost. I have had two front end blow outs in over 30 years of motorhoming and the coach repair cost for those two blow outs is over $60,000. Makes that tire upgrade seem a lot cheaper.

[NewellCrazy]

The information below is direct from the Newell Factory on this:

365 Tire Upgrade

Starting with Coach 1230, the standard equipment for front and tag-axle tires was upgraded from metric size 315 to 365.

The 365 tire offers the following improvements:

Increases the weight-capacity rating from 9,090 lbs. per tire for the 315 to 10,500 lbs. per tire for the 365.

Reduces the recommended inflation pressure from 130 psi for the 315 to 120 psi for the 365. This results in a smoother ride.

Raises the approved maximum cruising speed from 65 mph for the 315 to 75 mph for the 365.

The Newell Service Department has developed upgrade packages for previously built coaches to replace the 315 tires on the steer axle with 365 tires. The scope and cost of this retrofit vary, depending on when the coach was built. That’s because some suspension designs require only new tires and wheels, while others also require new wheel hubs and fender modifications. Coaches with the Porsche-design front styling (one-piece windshield) also require some body modifications.

In my own opinion I don't think I would consider this upgrade for only the ride benefits, but what becomes a tough decision is when someone can stay within the published safety specifications by keeping proper air pressure and sustaining a reasonable cruising speed with routine replacement intervals. Maybe someone will eventually come up with a wheel that will fit the larger studs on some of the Newell Coaches. Neweller - are you listening?

[afrench45]

Tom, I can get you that information when I am at the coach tomorrow.
Steve, The wheels and new tires bolted right on, and to my knowledge I did not get new finder skirts.
After having the 365 tires I will never run on anything else. We have taken many trips in 90+ temps running 75-80mph with no problem. I know on the newer coaches (I believe 05-06 and up)new fender skirts are required. I know in some instances it can cost up to $15000 I have seen!

Been using the coach non-stop and loving every second of it.

[encantotom]

i would be interested in the part numbers and such for the wheels so i can see if they can be had without going through newell. i like to stay away from their big pricing. if it requires re-machining of lug bolts, that would be a big hassle for sure.

i have also heard that newell offers a sway bar or stabilizer upgrade that improves the handling pretty dramatically on the late 90' to early 2000 coaches. anyone heard of or done that? i was chatting with a fellow who had a 2001 and he talked about that a friend of his with a similar year newell had the tire and stablizer upgrades and it made an incredible ride and handling difference. hard to think it was very bad to start with...

tom

[Richard and Rhonda]

So..............

I have been thinking about this upgrade for a year now. Some at Newell say it won't work with a straight axle like mine, others say yes with a change of wheel studs and addition of wider fender flares. The poppets may have to be reset in the steering gear box to keep from rubbing during a sharp turn.

Some time ago I bought the Alcoa rims to do the conversion. They were intended for a Prevost and are 22.5 diameter with 12 in width to handle the wide tires. I got a good deal on two brand new ones from a surplus dealer.

I am still up in the air on whether to continue or not. It's time to buy fronts and obviously that is the time to do the conversion. On the other hand I have had no problems with the existing setup.

It was interesting to hear of first hand experience of the handling before and after the tire swap. I would really like to hear more to help me with the decision.

In the mean time the rims I scored off Ebay age gracefully in the garage.

One thing I had already decided was that it was going to be much cheaper to drill the lug holes bigger than it was to remove the hub, press out the studs, and replace the studs with smaller ones.

[afrench45]

Richard,
I just got an email from a friend that bought a new Prevost and changed tires. He has 4 new 365's for $400 a piece. He said that was half price. Now may be the time to upgrade!

For anyone else he also has 4 315's and he said they were half price.
The tires are in the Orlando area and I can get anyone in contact with the owner to talk about shipping etc....

-Andrew

[encantotom]

hi richard, is this the wheels that you bought?

http://www.alcoa.com/global/en/products/product.asp?prod_id=4281&Product=Commercial%20Transportation|Wheels&Category=30|383&Query=22.5&page=0

are our wheels polished or durabright?

tom

[RussWhite]

are our wheels polished or durabright?

tom

Tom, as I remember it, ALCOA got things rolling with Dura-bright 2002 and later. So, I do not think they will be found as original equipment on coaches manufactured before that time. I certainly don't have them on my '99. Wish I did however.

Russ - living on my ALCOA pension :-)

[afrench45]

I know Newell recommends the 365's on the front of the coach due to a heavy front end. I was just thinking though, what about the tag? I have seen a few coaches of my vintage with 365's on the tag but didn't know if it should be looked into. I know Prevost have problems with blowouts on the tag axel so what about our Newells. Is it a bolt on assembly or is modification required?
Any thoughts?

[rheavn]

Tom & Julie,
Just got back from Newell & asked a lot of questions about the 365 upgrade. I also asked your question about putting the 365s on the tag. Any coach with the tag wheel inverted out like the front wheels, this change in the tag assembly occurred around 2000, can put the 365s on the tag as a bolt on. Advantage is additional carrying ability & an emergency spare for the front.

Some other answers I got. The alcoa wheel # Newell is using for the 365s is 803601. When I asked if the stud holes could be drilled out to fit coaches with 1 1/16" studs I was told Newell didn't think Alcoa would like that. I then asked could the wheels be ordered with 1 1/16" stud holes and was told Newell had not tried. I asked about the wheel well skirt replacement. I was told it was a coach by coach basis, but felt my '99 would need the ww skirts altered. I was under the impression the ww skirt alteration was making it wider, but that is incorrect. It needs to be raised to allow clearance.

By the way Newell has lowered the price on the non ZF coaches to $2995.

Hope this answers some questions.....................

[encantotom]

hi steve,

the alcoa spec sheet shows the hub pilot wheels that is 22.5x10.5 to be a 80360x, where x is the finish. a 1= polished outside only. so that would make it a 803601. is that the part number you meant? all of the alcoa wheels are a 6 digit part number. there are a set of them on ebay right now for about a grand shipped.

the 365/70R22.5 tire fits on this wheel. yikes these are expensive tires. michelins are about 800 apiece just for the tire.

a DB after the 1 would make it a durabrite finish.

tom

[RussWhite]

Hi Tom,

Steve had the part number correct in a private email to me. It is 803601. The specs as you noted are here:

http://tinyurl.com/3nbcxlr

We still have to overcome the issue of "bolt hole diameter" as our studs are bigger. I had not looked up the price of the 365 - that is a shocking price. A number of the guys on the Prevost forum are reporting good service and better pricing from Double Coin tires. I need to check into that.

http://www.doublecoin-us.com/

Russ

[tuga]

Tom & Julie,
Just got back from Newell & asked a lot of questions about the 365 upgrade. I also asked your question about putting the 365s on the tag. Any coach with the tag wheel inverted out like the front wheels, this change in the tag assembly occurred around 2000, can put the 365s on the tag as a bolt on. Advantage is additional carrying ability & an emergency spare for the front.

Some other answers I got. The alcoa wheel # Newell is using for the 365s is 803601. When I asked if the stud holes could be drilled out to fit coaches with 1 1/16" studs I was told Newell didn't think Alcoa would like that. I then asked could the wheels be ordered with 1 1/16" stud holes and was told Newell had not tried. I asked about the wheel well skirt replacement. I was told it was a coach by coach basis, but felt my '99 would need the ww skirts altered. I was under the impression the ww skirt alteration was making it wider, but that is incorrect. It needs to be raised to allow clearance.

By the way Newell has lowered the price on the non ZF coaches to $2995.

Hope this answers some questions.....................

Steve,

Is this the total price? Including 2 front tires, wheels, and skirt alteration?

[The Newell]

Tuga,
When I asked Tommy Key if that price includes everything including the wheel well skirt(painted) he said everything except the machining of the wheel studs. Machining of the wheel studs is $2,000 more.

[tuga]

Tuga,
When I asked Tommy Key if that price includes everything including the wheel well skirt(painted) he said everything except the machining of the wheel studs. Machining of the wheel studs is $2,000 more.

So the total price (walk out the door) is $4995. Wow!

Mine rides just fine - I'll keep the $5K in the bank, Hank!

[tuga]

Just for grins, I called my local Michelin dealer and priced a 365/70R22.5 in a steering tire.

Tire, tax, mount, and balance for 2 tires is $2,280.13

That's not the good part: they would have to come directly from Michelin. He doesn't know when the tires could be delivered; he's going to check with his manager and give me a delivery date.

Stay tuned.....

[rheavn]

Hey Tuga,
If you talk with the Michelin dealer again ask him about the 315s we currently have on our coaches as I've heard there is also a shortage of those too.

[JohnC]

As a note, we have found that roughly four out of five non-ZF coaches will not require machining of the bolts.
If you have a washer behind the nut, your are good to go without machining.

Newell also recommends 315 front tires be replaced every three years, versus five years for coaches with 365 tires.

[rheavn]

John,
Hopefully you can answer a question I have not been able to get a answer. My coach has the large wheel studs. Newell ordered the wheels for the coach back in '98 to fit the large studs. Why, as part of the upgrade, can't the new wheels be ordered with the larger holes as my current wheels have? This would reduce the upgrade cost considerably.

Thanks in advance...........................

[Richard and Rhonda]

On a lark, I bought the Alcoa rims to fit the wide tires. On second thought I have decided to skip the conversion.

They are brand new. I'll make someone a great deal on them. The Alcoa part number is GA803601

[leskorcala@hotmail.com]

Tom,
Each coach cost can be different based on the coach year. The least expensive sounds like what afrench45 is having done which is 2 new wider aluminum wheels, 2 new 365 Michelin tires AND 2 new wider and repainted front fender skirts.

On my coach the 365 tire upgrade was $5800. I would get everything above plus my coach has 1 1/16" wheel studs that have to be machined down to 7/8" and rethreaded. The machining is $2,000. Not sure why wheels could not be drilled larger. The larger studs were used for a few years. When Newell went to the independent front suspension in about late '96 or '97 the engineers felt the 1 1/16 wheel studs were needed. At some point around 2000 the Newell engineers backed the wheel studs off to 7/8". 7/8" wheel studs have been used since including 2011 coaches. At this point I can not justify the upgrade as I have weighed my coach and I am well within the 315 weight rating, I run about 63 mph normally and I keep them inflated to 130 psi. I also check the cruising temperatures when I'm on the road and seldom see temperatures above 130 psi.

Prevosts have gone to the 365s on the front and tag axle.

afrench45,
Listening to how you use your coach and the tire temps you are experiencing I think you're making a wise decision. Remember though if your front tires are needing to be replaced anyway the cost of the upgrade is cut in half, while your margin of safety is increased considerably. My advice to every one, based on personal experience, is to avoid a front end blow out at ANY cost. I have had two front end blow outs in over 30 years of motorhoming and the coach repair cost for those two blow outs is over $60,000. Makes that tire upgrade seem a lot cheaper.


We too, have 2001 coach and after picking up our coach from the Miami plant ( met the individual owner seller there ) we were told that it would be good idea to replace the fronts soon! we still have lot of miles left ! My Smart tire was showing max 127 durring our 2500miles return travel to Noerwest.
Mike at Newell said: thet we are lucky since we dont have to do any modifications to the fanders and wheel's studs etc. so the total was to be around $2800
Price is good and we too will play safe and go with it!
I found out interesting that some places , trucks stops etc , who could also do it swap for 365's they will buy off your old tires in exhange , what they do with them , they sell them to the Farmers etc. you coiuld get around $800 for it aspecilaly if the tires are in good shape ! the alu, rims are very $$$ and they can be sold as pair.

My Smart tire small screen device its in ver bad spot to see, is nayone knows if there are complex wiring , or I can just cut the wires move it and splise them together.

Best,
Les

[encantotom]

ok, how do i tell if i would need to modify the fender skirts or not? i need to replace all my tires and if they last 5 years vs 3 on the front and i have to replace the ones i have, if there is not fender skirt modification it is maybe kind of a no brainer.

[lbrachfe]

It depends on hub size and not just fender flares. I had the upgrade last year and only needed wheels,tires and the mud flaps re attached differently. I have what are considered the small hubs that require no modification and the wheels well flares were perfect. Total cost on #646 was $2900 give or take. If you take some measurements I would think that Newell can tell you over the phone.

[encantotom]

so the tires you put on were 365 70r 22.5?

[fulltiming]

Tom, according to my records, wheels and tires only applies to 1997 coach 443 through 2004 coach 696 (except 671, 681, and 685), so your coach would should not need any fender modifications. Not sure about the hub issue.

[lbrachfe]

Yes, 365/70/22.5's

[afrench45]

Hi Tom,
im fairly sure almost every coach between 2001-2003 can have the 365s without any modification. I was at Newell last week, and every coach but one that I saw had upgraded to the 365. I even saw a 2001 that
put the 365 on his tag axle too.
The tire size you posted is correct too.

[Chester B. Stone, Jr.]

I would strongly recommend the tire and wheel upgrade. A few years ago I blew the two front tires on my Country Coach, one on Interstate 10. Believe me, this is something you do not want to happen. I recently put the new 365s and Alcoa wheels on my 2001 with no modifications. I was fortunate to locate them locally in Arizona for an all-in cost of $2,650 and avoided having to ship them from Miami. My tag axle tires had a flat spot on each, so I merely moved the 315s from the front to the tag, thus saving the cost of new tag tires. Good luck.

[davidmbrady]

I would strongly recommend the tire and wheel upgrade. A few years ago I blew the two front tires on my Country Coach, one on Interstate 10. Believe me, this is something you do not want to happen. I recently put the new 365s and Alcoa wheels on my 2001 with no modifications. I was fortunate to locate them locally in Arizona for an all-in cost of $2,650 and avoided having to ship them from Miami. My tag axle tires had a flat spot on each, so I merely moved the 315s from the front to the tag, thus saving the cost of new tag tires. Good luck.

Hi Chester,

Just curious cause I've been thinking about a similar upgrade for my 2002 BlueBird Wanderlodge. What pressures do you run in the 365's? What pressure did you run in your old 315's that were replaced? How would you compare the ride and handling? What's the cost of the 365's compared to the 315's? Do you have any issues with availability? Does the coach have any clearance issues full lock steering to full lock? Do you have IFS?

Thanks,
David Brady
'02 Blue Bird, LXi
Series 60, Single Slide
NC

[lbrachfe]

110lbs on the 365's and 130 on the 315's. No clearence issues and the ride is better.Worth the $ for the piece of mind.

[Chester B. Stone, Jr.]

Hi David. I installed the 365s in Tucson and drove into Mexico with a noticeable improvement in the ride on Mexican roads. I currently carry 120 in the front tires, but as soon as I weigh the front end, I may lower the pressure for a smoother ride, but will base this on Newell's advise. I carried 130 in the 315s but reduced to 110 when I put them on the tag. I cannot compare costs since I did not buy or price the 315s. As to availability, the seller in Tucson had the wheels and tires in about 4 days. No clearance issues with my 2001 model and I had the 7/8" studs. Not sure what IFS means. Most important, I feel much safer even if I had no improvement in the ride, and this is especially valid for me since I drive often between San Carlos, Mexico, and the US.

[encantotom]

i took the plunge and ordered the alcoa wheels for the 365 tire upgrade today.

i got the pricing on the michelin tires and they are about the same as the 315's.

will get new 315's for the rest.

i should not have to do any modifications according to newell and what everyone else here is saying.

thanks

tom

[encantotom]

i got the tires and new wheels installed today.

paid for the tires through the michelin advantage program.

just for your info.

315 80r 22.5 michelin xza2 energy 586.18 52.83 plus sales tax for 690 each

365 70r 22.5 michelin xza 589.36 33.08 plus sales tax for 672.00 each

and 180 for mounting and balancing

for the new front alcoa wheels about $1100 and i sold the old ones for $300

so a total of $6464 for all 8 tires and new wheels.

the front 365 upgrade counting wheels was ~$2200 and only $760 more than just replacing the front tires with the 315's.

btw, it was 111 degrees today here....gettin toasty

later

tom

[rheavn]

Tom,
Something to consider in the future is putting the 365s on the tag axle. By doing so you would in effect be carrying a spare for the front in the case of an emergency. It can only be done on coaches from about 2000 up.

[NewellCrazy]

Figured I'd share a few pics of Michelin 365's for what its worth.

325432553256