Entrance door problem

[GORDON HUMMEL]

I, like many of you, have had the sticking door issue when the door is in the sun!
Recently I noticed the door skin was seperating from the frame on the jam side. The frame is what I would call a Z section, inside going to the left, jam side going out and outside going to the right, rear of coach. This outside edge is attached to the door skin with structual tape. I removed the tape on the lower portion of the door. It was seperated +/- 3/16". Now this lower section of the frame has bowed out toward the rear of the coach 1/8" @ the center of the bow. It is as if the foam pushed it out. I tried clamping this 26" section with 5 c clamps & a 1" piece of wood on the outside, but ended up with 4 small bows & the frame edge still 1/8" beyond the door skin edge.
At this point I am considering removing the inner door panel & removing the foam insulation so I can get the frame edge back in line with the door skin.
Any recomendations?

[encantotom]

i would call newell and ask them. they gave me some pretty detailed instructions on how to get the interior aluminum panel off that is covered with vinyl. it is not for the fainthearted. you have to take the door off to start.

what you are describing i believe is a result of the door sticking and then the constant friction causing the door panels to separate. i would take this as a caution to all of you who have the sticky entrance door problem that more damage can occur. if i remember right, michael has the same thing to perhaps a lesser degree.

i did spend quite a bit of time getting mine not to stick, but in direct sun of 115 degrees plus (yes it was 115 here yesterday), it doesnt stick. for those of you who have the problem there is a series of posts in this forum on it. i described how i got mine to not catch anymore. (it is the aluminum swelling in the sunlight that pushes the door up against the door frame). i would say there is a movement of 1/8" at least in the gap everyday. in addition, much of the bubbling of the wallpaper inside if you have it will be on a joint of the interior wood wall panels and that is caused by the same expansion and contraction of the aluminum skinned coach.

let us know what newell says.

later

tom

[HoosierDaddy]

Hi Gordon,
My 93 has a similar problem that was exacerbated by vandals prying on the door prior to my purchase. I painstakingly cleaned all of the "tape" from the crack and applied an adhesive that I purchased at Home Lowes. I clamped the whole door perimeter. The adhesive didn't work. Now I have THAT to clean out. I am considering riveting it like the factory did before they started using "tape". I have the rivets and bought a rivet "buck" that fits my air chisel. I just haven't had the time or a buddy to help me do it.

[fulltiming]

The expansion is a concern. I have shaved the edge of my door on the door side with a metal rasp and it helped some but a couple of days ago I could not get the door to close all the way even after I put the awning out. I found that the striker plate for the deadbolt was the obstruction. For the moment, I have removed the striker plate. I know that a more permanent fix will be required.

If someone talks to Newell and gets some detailed instructions, please post them here. Most of the early 1990's Newells have issues with expansion during the hot weather affecting the proper closing of the door.

[larryweikart]

I have tried, twice, with 2 different, highly recomended glues, to secure the skin back to the door. Neither one has held! Like Hoosier Daddy, I've had to clean out the dried glue and that is not an easy chore. I sure hate to rivet the door, but something needs to be done. The proper fix is probably taking the door apart and rebuilding like I had to do on a previous coach. That is a big job. I sure hope we learn a different fix.

[fulltiming]

According to Newell, they began using 3M tape with a special space age adhesive in the mid 1980's and expanded its use to eliminate the rivets on the side panels in later years. That is probably the best bet if you can get Newell to provide you enough to reattach the door frame.

[Wally Arntzen]

One sure way to open the stuck door is to throw a bucked of cold water on it. It don't solve the problem but it sure works great. I'm currently parked facing the sun but have my awning out all of the time and I have no problem at all.
I probably used the water bucket solution 4 times since I had the coach.

[HoosierDaddy]

I've done that as well Wally( the water thing)...I found that I could wet the side just aft of the door. That will cause the sidewall to shrink without having water just outside the door.hhhhmmmmmaybe we need an internal water supply that will seep down the side of the coach when we need it!!

[Wally Arntzen]

Every time mine was stuck shut I just threw one bucket of water on the door and it opened right away. When a friend told to do it I thought he was pulling my leg but it was like magic. I sure hope you get if solved beause if your inside the coach and it gets stuck you will be crawling out the window to get out of the coach.

[jdaniel]

I have filed mine with a flat file on the door edge a couple of times and really thought I had made progress....however after it sits a while, I'm right back where I started.

[encantotom]

mine stuck really bad and in the hot arizona sun would make it so you couldnt open the door at all without a bucket of cold water like wally says.

for me the trick was this. after each filing, i painted over the filing area with touchup paint. then i could see where it was sticking by seeing where the paint wore off. you dont want to take off to much at a time so it looks goofy on the door, so slow and easy.

eventually and slowly and carefully i got it so it doesnt stick at all.

the problem with sticking for a long time without fixing it has been said a couple of times. the door will start delaminating and you will have a mess to deal with. ask a few of the folks here that theres is that way now.

later

tom

[fulltiming]

Tom, you know I resemble that remark. Mine was that way when I bought it and it hasn't improved with age.

[GORDON HUMMEL]

I have finally had the time to work on my door. I called Newell on thurs to get further info, but with the holiday etc I have not heard back
I am a fulltimer so I really did not want to remove the door. I removed the interior cover around the latches to study the construction.
The door perimeter frame structure is made up of 3 Z sections, top, bottom & latch side. The hinge side is a C channel with a wood insert. The exterior panel is attached to the perimeter frame with 3M HVB tape. Additional interior alum support pieces are added along with some wood blocks to support the locks. Some steel pieces are also added for additional support in the handle areas. This assy in now foamed and becomes quite strong.
I did notice tape was applied to the inside of the perimeter frame so that the foam would not stick to the frame & allow it to move.
The interior panel(s) still have me scratching my bald head. The first panel is riveted to the perimeter frame & the alum support pieces in the interior of the door. The next panel with the wallpaper on it is seamingly retained by the plastic edge pieces on the top & sides riveted to the first panel and by 3-4 rivets on the bottom that go thru the both the alum panels & a plastic trim piece. Additional retention is provided by the pull handles and other visible items.
To remove this panel the door would need to be removed in order to slide it out the bottom. All interior protruding hardware' interior door handle needs to be removed. Once the rivets at the bottom are removed the panel can be slid out the bottom. The stainless steel latch bracket is cut such that panel will slide through. Pretty slick! This then gives you access to remove all the rivets on the interior panel, and to work on the door. WRONG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

THESE 2 INTERIOR PANELS ARE GLUD TOGETHER.

After studying this for quite a while I gave up & broke the plastic trim pieces & removed the wallpapered panel, giving me access to remove the other panel.
Basically my exterior skin is being held on by the foam & the 4 exterior alum trim extrusions that screw into the interior alum framework. The perimeter tape is +/- 20% intact. The foam at the perimeter will not allow me to attach the perimeter to the exterior panel without quite a bit of force which will not contribute to a good bond. My solution is to remove 2-3" of foam at the perimeter which allows the 2 pieces to be joined easily. I'm using 3M 4955 tape & also running a bead of Sikaflex 252 on the interior just to be sure.
I'm doing this is small section & after I put the Sikaflex on, I put the interior panel on temperarly to make sure all the rivet holes line up.
Long process but I have not taken the door off YET.
I will have to take the door off to do the hinge side

More to folllow

[chockwald]

So, Gordon, this sounds like more than a one day project. What will you do for a door when you do take off THE door? Or will you be able to completely remove and replace the door in one day?

[encantotom]

i have wanted to replace the wallpaper on the inside of the door with vinyl. newell told me i had to take the door off, drill out the rivets on the bottom plastic trim. then the aluminum panel with the wallpaper on is glued, so you have to spray or pour adhesive releaser down the panek and use a small dowell to slide down in as the glue releases being careful to not bend the panel.

i have decided to faux paint the wallpaper instead.

good luck

tom in tokyo

[prairieschooner]

Tom,
We were able to remove the wallpaper throughout our Coach. After Elaine (chockwald's wife) pointed out that the laminate should be underneath the wallpaper we were able to slowly pull it off and then Tricia used Murphy's Oil Soap to clean the Glue residue and whatever was left of the wallpaper. This was a tedious project that is not completed as yet but we believe that it has been well woth it, thanks Elaine.

[folivier]

You had laminate under the wallpaper?
I wonder if my '93 has laminate also?
That opens up a few new possibilities.

[chockwald]

Hi Forest.....In Steve's case, the wallpaper had been applied at a later date over existing laminate. Both Steve's coach and my coach had all "wood" laminate installed at the factory throughout the coach. Elaine had noticed in one area that there appeared to be laminate under the wallpaper. Since our coaches were so similar it was a safe assumption.

[prairieschooner]

Forest,
Yep, there was a Laminate under the Wallpaper. I am not really sure when the Wallpaper was installed. I was told that Newell did a refurbish on the Coach at some time in the past but not sure as to the extent. With the quality of Newell's Construction I would think that covering the Bulkheads with a Laminate would be standard practice if for no other reason than simply to insure that they are sealed. Wallpaper would then have been installed afterwards during the construction process.
I would be very cautious about removing anything without doing some sampling or even better yet discuss it with Newell. In our case their records did not go back to 1982 and the Wallpaper was in poor condition anyway so................

[GORDON HUMMEL]

Just wanted to post an update on my progress on the door repair. I guess if I had heard from Newell on the removal of the outer interior panel, I might have rethought my approach. I was able to save the bottom & hinge side plastic trim & lowe's had the same plastic that I destroyed for $6.
In the last 3 days I have fixed the bottom & the latch side. The top will be done tomorrow, & the hinge side Saturday, hopefully in one day.
Removing the original tape is quite a bit of work. I cut as much out as possible with the blade shown in the attached picture, and the remainder with what I think was a cutoff wheel, shown in the picture until it broke. It worked quite well, sometimes working both edges at the same time.

More to follow

[encantotom]

hi gordon, awesome job.

can you please take a picture of the entire door on the side that faces in so i can see the whole support structure?

this is different than what i had in my mind from what newell had told me.

the plastic trim is the stuff they use for melamine paneling, so i am glad you found it at lowes. home depot has it too.

so you took all the plastic trim off so you wouldnt have to take the door off?

i really want to recover the door panel rather than paint it but didnt want to take the door off.

steve, the rest of us do not have laminate under the wallpaper. what i was referring to was only the door panel and not the rest of the coach.

the wallpaper on mine was i think bonded before the wood was cut and then installed with the wood.

any bubbling you guys have in the wallpaper is where the wall plywood seams are and are from expansion contraction of the coach.

i stripped all the wallpaper off and it is a bear because it is bonded so well. i would not recommend anyone do it unless they are covereing with a very forgiving material afterwards because it will be very hard to get the wall smooth.

tom in malaysia

[GORDON HUMMEL]

Tom
Yes, I took the plastic off so I could have access to the inner panel without removing the door. I did not know how to remove it prior to your explaination to use a dowel & wp remover. The adhesive appeared to be other than wp paste, but until your removal instruction were posted I was @ a complete loss. I knew there had to be a process, given the way Newells are built & with all the door problems, but again I could not figure it out!

Attached is a picture of the interior door framing. To be honest, the laayout does not make a lot of sense to me, but who am I to question. This framing does NOT seam to be attached to the outer skin as it has craft tape on as did the interior of the perimeter frame.

Finished the latch side yesterday, but with all the rain & high humidity I will wait to do the top.

I have been considering adding 2-4 veritcal tensioners. Going from the hinge side, I would replace the wood screw with a long machine screw going into a turnbuckle, then allthreat or cable & make a bracket the would rivet(structual) to the latch side. There is really nothing holding the perimeter @ a fixed dimention. My thought is as the exterior skin expands, the perimeter frame where it is attached to the outer skin moves to the rear of the coach & comes in contact with the catch side jam. When this edge becomes stuck & the door is opened, eventually the frame & exterior become seperated. In my case the edge of the perimeter frame moved out & caused the sticking. The paint on the exterior skin edge is still intact so it was not sticking.
This concept would not allow the door to expand as designed(?), but rather cause it to oil can. currently the 2 large vertical trim pieces that are glued to the exterior skin & screwed at the ends would have to be modified to accomondate the oilcanning.

Would like your thoughts on this and from anyone else for that matter

More to follow

[chockwald]

I don't think I've seen that many C-Clamps in once place in my entire life....LOL!

[GORDON HUMMEL]

Ever since I started this project, I had the concern that the enviorment I was in was not the best suited for the products I was using. These are the best for this application, but with humidity etc, their performance by not meet expeditations.
As discussed previously, my problem is that the exterior skin seperated at the hing & moved rearward hitting the jam & then total failure as the door was used when sticking. I really wanted a mechanical coupling that would not allow this.
The attached picture is my solution, so far, to that problem. A 1/4" machine screw is used in place of a wood screw at the hinge. A coupling nut, all thread, fender washers & a nut complete the assembly. I've only installed one so far to validate my thoughts.
One turn on the nut & the 1/8" gap on the hinge side was gone. I closed the door & I think it was the first time in 18 months that the SS bracket that the latch mounts to, did not rub the jam. Only time will tell, but I think this might be the answer.
I will install 2 more above the lock as most of the problem has been from the latch up.

[GORDON HUMMEL]

The removal of the door, always had me concerned. With the other 3 sides repaired, only the hinge side needed to be reattached. The 3 allthread parts I added moved the skin back to the hinge, but it needed to be sealed to the frame. you can see in the first picture, I attached an angle bracket, 4 of them to the inside of the outer skin with some HD tape. I then used silicone to fill the gap between the skin & the frame. Partially cured, I pulled the angle brackets in, & secured wwith a wood screw. After it dried, I used adhesive on the joint as a backup. All was fixed & no door removal.
With the inner interior panel attached, all that was left, was to install the interior wallpapered alum panel. A trip to Lowe's provided the plastic trim pieces. The first one's I got would accept .25 material, as the original was, but the long piece that you rivet through to attach it was to short. Back to lowe's & the have a different one that has a long enough long piece, but it only designed to accepts .90 material. My wallpapered panel is .122, but it will fit.
If you recall, Tom had indicated based on info from Newell, to use a dowel to pooch out the middle of this panel & slide it out the bottom after you remove the door.
I riveted the new plastic trim on all sides but the bottom. I then slid the panel in the hinge side plastic, 1/2" lower then it should be. Then with the help of a broom stick in the middle of the door, I was able to insert the latch side in the plastic trim in the area above the latch. I repeated the process below the latch. With a wooden block & hammer, I tapped the panel upward into the top plastic trim. No glue was used as the handles etc hold this panel firmly.
One last & important note.
If you want to remove the wallpapered panel with out removing the door, try this.
Break out the top plastic piece; $2.28 for 8'. Once removed, you can use the Newell process & install a dowel down the middle, & pour in the wallpaper remover. Once the adhesive releases, you should be able to slide this panel up & out. (do not have awning out)

Well thats it. Now I will have to wait till next summer to see if all works.

[folivier]

So Gordon, are you taking orders for door repairs yet?
Great job! I'm hoping mine holds up. I do have some delamination on the outer skin but no problems with sticking yet.

[GORDON HUMMEL]

Forest,
I might suggest that a few rivets be added now before complete failure. The 2 outside trim pieces, the one above the outside handle, and the one @ the same level as the top lock, can be removed. At the edges, you can add rivets & you will never see them.
Similiar process on the bottom edge

[Richard and Rhonda]

Gordon,

Just wondering how the High Bond Tape "I'm using 3M 4955 tape & also running a bead of Sikaflex 252 on the interior just to be sure." worked out in your door skin repair?

How hard was the tape to work with? If I understand your post correctly, you didn't have to remove the outer skin to reattach?

Is the tape "papered" on both sides? If it is, I was thinking of an application technique where you could put it in place, then carefully peel away the paper whilst keeping the alignment in order. Then do the other side and press the door against the frame.

Before I tackle the door, I am just trying to take advantage of your learning curve.

[GORDON HUMMEL]

Richard
So far it's been 2 years & all is staying in place. This summer we had about a month of 100+ days & the door facing west & not one issue.
The 4955 that I purchased only had paper on one side. As I recall after getting all the old tape out, I cut the 4955 into about 2' pieces, wedged the frame & skin apart to give me working room, put the 4955 on the outside skin & left the paper on until I was ready to clamp that section.

Also highly recomment rivets under the Newell trim. The inside is hidden by the rubber weatherstrip

Good luck