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chockwald
02-21-2010, 12:38 AM
Went out to start up the 6V92 this morning. Uplugged from shore power and went inside to start it up....NOTHING! At first I thought maybe it wasn't in neutral, but then I noticed I wasn't getting any DC power anywhere.....no interior lights, no backup monitor....nothing that works off 12 volt would work, except the radio.....hmmm? Then I went back outside and plugged back into shorepower, and all the 12 volt stuff came on, and I was able to start the 6V92. I then uplugged, and all the 12 volt stuff went off, and I couldn't shut the diesel off. The batteries are all fine as it starts fine when plugged into AC. One additional thing....I cannot get the genset to turn over, whether or not plugged in. All I hear is a "clicking" sound from the genset (I opened up the genset door and tried to start it there, and that is when I heard the clicking sound). I checked all the fuses, including the large 90amp fuses at the back. All was well when we returned from our weekend at Rancho Jurupa, except I noticed on Tuesday that the batteries did not seem to be charging. I unplugged the converter/charger, and then plugged it back in and they started charging.

So, this is all I can think of....what am I missing? All the battery grounds seem fine, and it starts when plugged into shore power. Hoping one of you can steer me in the right direction. I'm a dunce when it comes to trouble shooting, and would not know where to start....HELP!!

Richard and Rhonda
02-21-2010, 12:54 AM
Oh boy, call me if you want ate won seven too too tree two zed fiver six

I think you need to start with the voltmeter and start measuring voltages at both the coach and house batteries, with and without the coach plugged in.

chockwald
02-21-2010, 02:11 PM
Talked with Tom last night after I talked with you (thanks for helping me to get focused, Richard).......we've narrowed down the trouble shooting to a few areas based on the symptoms I related to you (coach will start when plugged into shorepower, genset won't....nothing will start when not plugged in).....house battery ground, house batteries, and perhaps the merge solenoid at the rear of the coach. I've been under the weather for the past 5 days, and just didn't have the energy to tackle anymore last night, so I'll give it a shot this afternoon when I get home from soccer. I feel better about diagnosing this problem after talking with Tom. Tom, thanks for taking the time to talk with me last night. You really helped me clarify in my mind how to tackle this problem. I'll keep you updated on my progress this afternoon.

Summersgal
02-21-2010, 03:38 PM
Does your coach have the switch on the overhead console to switch shoreline power on and off. I can go out and test this theory, I will unplug from shoreline and leave the switch in the shoreline position and see if it will start.

Jeff

Summersgal
02-21-2010, 03:49 PM
Clarke,

I went out to the 88 and unplugged from shoreline, I left the transfer switch in the shoreline position and tried to start it. It started right up, sorry, I was hoping that maybe your switch had a bad set of contacts and was not working correctly.

Jeff

chockwald
02-22-2010, 12:40 AM
I don't have a transfer switch in mine......just got home, and will be checking out a few ideas Tom had. Hope it's something simple....Tom and I think it's either the batteries have discharged, the battery ground is bad, or a combination of those two, or a bad merge solenoid. Will update later.

chockwald
02-22-2010, 08:03 PM
OK....problem solved....it's always the ground....well, not ALWAYS, but a lot of the time. Tom was helping me, over the phone, to trace the wiring running from the converter/charger back to the rear panel so we could begin testing the wire for voltage, and I was about 1/2 way back to the rear panel where the merge solenoid is when my neighbor walked up and asked "what's wrong?".....he is a crane operator, but is also a wiz on diesel, or gas engines, as well as large diesel trucks. He took me back to the rear electrical panel and started wiggling ground wires....he began wiggling the large ground on the right of the picture below (and it was very loose) and I hear a "click"....then he wiggled the other one and the same result....we cleaned off the terminals and the wire connections and reconnected, and wala....12 volt power again in the coach.

Thank you again, Tom and Richard for your help. What a relief. The more I talked with each of you the better I felt about figuring this out. Always helps to have knowledgeable eyes on site, however, and my neighbor and his son have helped me and my son, Tim numerous times with car and coach issues and have always come through quickly....should have talked to him sooner. But, still it is so nice to know that you guys are there for me and feeling my pain.....nice to know I'm not alone in this adventure, and that, as Tom has said before, is the real blessing of this website are the friendships that have developed over these past 2 years.....3/1/2010 will be our 2 year anniversary of the purchase of our Newell.

folivier
02-22-2010, 10:05 PM
Clarke, glad it was a simple fix. That's what I'm learning about our Newells, don't overlook the obvious.

zcasa
02-22-2010, 11:41 PM
Geez Clarke, I was going to get you to move into a beautiful 1992. lol.

Glad it all worked out. Michael helped me with the same exact issue on the generator last year. He said send me some pictures, I did, Michael said check your power cable looks a little loose. I couldn't even tell that by looking at it. But, sure enough, a quarter of a turn, maximum, and whammy, generator fired right up.

Great lessons for all of us, that as we drive, things wiggle and just need to be tightened back up. Love it, that is why my tool box only needs a crescent wrench. lol.

chockwald
02-23-2010, 12:52 AM
Forest....so often it is the simple things....I was focused on the grounds up front by the house batteries, as well as the grounds on the chassis batteries that I overlooked the ones above the merge solenoid.

David.....yep, stuff does work loose.....now I have one more area to watch. Think I'll stick with the less complicated '82.....I get confused enough with the low tech stuff that comes up on mine...haha!

Apparently the ground had been failing for a while, and as a result my house batteries were not getting a full charge...they were way down, and I didn't know it, but once I fixed the ground issues in back they are now charging properly again, and for about the first 2 hours the charger was "slamming" the house batteries with about 25+ amps.....it's now dropped down a stage is is hitting them with a little under 10amps.

zcasa
02-23-2010, 02:52 AM
Great relief, I"m sure, you'll hopefully get a good nights sleep tonight and be back up to speed tomorrow. Life is good.

chockwald
02-23-2010, 06:13 AM
OK...that part was too easy.....the generator still will not turn over though.....hmmm. Everything else back to normal, but Kohler generator will not start. Only can hear the click of the starter solenoid....any ideas? How do I trouble shoot that? Must be getting some power...could the starter be stuck? Have never had trouble starting it ever...it always turns over immediately and fires right up....until the issue with the bad ground.

Is there a switch that might have to be reset?

HoosierDaddy
02-23-2010, 12:16 PM
It is easy to check the starter solenoid. I'd jump that and see if it turns over. If you're hearing a click it could be the starter solenoid or the fuel pump solenoid. They both are on the right side of the engine near the starter motor.

Richard and Rhonda
02-23-2010, 03:12 PM
Hmmm, jump the solenoid as suggested. You could have cooked the contacts in the solenoid trying to crank during the low voltage session. Low voltage produces high amperage which is not really all that healthy for the contacts. My guess is the click is the solenoid pulling in, but the contacts are fried and not allowing current to the starter motor.

As a quick check, put the voltmeter on both terminals of the solenoid and check your voltage. Static and while trying to crank.

prairieschooner
02-23-2010, 03:17 PM
the place where you showed the loose Ground is the Shunt for the Amp Meter. This is too far away from the AC Generator to be the problem with a Starter. I would try to isolate a Battery that Starts the AC Generator (on our '82 the House Batteries do that job) from any others. I would also unbolt the middle section of your Front Bumper and unscrew the Exhaust Pipe (ours has a Pipe Union) so that you can bring the AC Generator out and get a good look. Now you can get a Voltage reading at the Positive Terminal of the Starter when idle and when trying to Start it, this will require some help from inside the Coach at the Starter Switch or long leads on a Volt Meter. This will prove or disprove another loose Connection or Low Voltage.

I would suggest that you use an Analog Volt Meter for this because they are much easier to read since you are not used to Troubleshooting Electrical issues. I would also advise you to always disconnect the Ground (-) 1st so that you don't turn a wrench into a Welding Rod or worse Ignite the Gases from a Battery that is Venting.
Here is a link to a Battery Tester with an Analog Meter that Harbor Freight sells;
http://www.harborfreightusa.com/usa/itemdisplay/displayItem.do?itemid=90636

remember Volts X Amps = Watts. so low Voltage makes any device work harder than designed.

folivier
02-23-2010, 03:33 PM
Is your generator propane? Maybe check that the low-voltage didn't shut off the propane switch? There may be a reset, but don't see why that wouldn't let the starter turn over the motor.

chockwald
02-23-2010, 04:18 PM
OK....will probabaly get to that tomorrow. Thank you for the ideas. This problem seems, at first blush, a little easier to trouble shoot.....I know where to start. The prior problem involved checking the wiring front to back. Pulling out the Genset seems less complex. I'll let ya'll know what I find.

Somehow this issue seems related to the previous issue as the generator started easily last Monday on our short trip home from Rancho Jurupa....not even a hicup.

chockwald
02-26-2010, 10:16 PM
OK...jumped the starter solenoid and it started right up. Off to buy a replacement. Will update later.

Later....it wasn't the starter solenoid.....something has gone wrong in the start switch on the console, or in the wiring at the remote start located next to the starter. Didn't have time to finish trouble shooting before it got dark today....but tomorrow is another day.

chockwald
02-27-2010, 04:38 PM
No working on the coach today....raining cats and dogs....maybe tomorrow.

zcasa
02-27-2010, 05:57 PM
Raining here too, Clarke. Cold too. I would say 15-20 degrees below normal/average. Sounds like you are narrowing down the culprit. I know that you will be relieved when you can isolate the issue. Best wishes tomorrow on finding and completing your fix.

chockwald
02-27-2010, 06:07 PM
Pretty sure the problem is in the on/off switch box next to genset.....open it up tomorrow and see what's going on. My first time way under the coach (had it blocked, of course) to disconnect the genset exhaust so I could pull it out....all manual..haha!

Still cold there, huh? Wow....still cold across Texas too....snow in Austin, TX a few days ago. Rain 4 out of last 5 weekends....only seems to rain on the weekends this year. Sitting inside recuperating from an 8 day chest cold, and watching the rain come down.

Some earthquake in Chile, huh?

Richard and Rhonda
02-28-2010, 02:16 AM
Don't know about your setup, but mine has two of the old glass type fuses right there at the control box. Look around and see if you have some.

I am assuming you measured voltage at the trigger of the starter solenoid and saw none when you hit the go button? Or asked in another way, why do you suspect the switch? Inquiring minds you know :-)

prairieschooner
02-28-2010, 03:27 PM
There is circuitry that will shut down the AC Generator for Low Oil Pressure or High Temperature, I have seen starting problems with sensors and circuit boards. Can you scan the Wiring Diagram from the Manual?

chockwald
02-28-2010, 04:07 PM
Richard......Didn't get back to the coach yesterday....it literally rained all day and into the evening. Even had a rare thunder/lightning show last night. I suspect something wrong inside the switch box.....a few weeks ago when I drove down to Temecula in the heavy rain storm the genset wouldn't start the next morning....it would turn over, but I believe the propane solenoid was not getting power. That afternoon after it dried out it started up and ran fine. I even ran it on the way home from Rancho Jurupa after our President's Day weekend, and it ran fine for 45 minutes under full load. Then last week after I had the "ground" issue on the rear panel, the propane solenoid trigger was getting power, but the starter solenoid trigger was not.

When the propane solenoid trigger was getting power I jumped the two terminals on the starter solenoid and got it to start and run, and was able to shut it down. I assumed it was the solenoid (at that time) that was bad.....OK, only a $12 part. When installed the new solenoid and turned on the house batteries the generator tried to start all by itself. I then disconnected the wire to the starter, turned on the batteries and found that the trigger was getting power all the time, whether or not I pushed the starter switch. I went inside and toggled the starter switch on the instrument panel, then went outside, turned off the batteries, and reconnected the starter. I turned on the batteries again, and it was quiet, as it should be, however, now I am not getter power to either trigger when pressing the starter switch, inside, or outside.

There are two sets of wires that connect to the starter box...both have molded plastic connectors with a number of pins inside of each. The larger one appears cracked, and I suspect that is how water got in on the trip down to Temecula.....so I will try to get back over today (still somewhat sick) and open up the box and see what I see inside. It got too dark and cold Friday for me to investigate the box further.

Is it possible there are fuses inside the box? I didn't see any on the outside the other day, and I was looking.

Steve...checked both oil and coolant levels and both are fine....I suspected that at first....I was hoping it was that simple. Now I'm thinking something has shorted inside the fuse box, or that there are fuses in there that have blown....hope, hope it's that simple. Then just clean up the box, wiring, and replace fuses. Otherwise, maybe the switch has gone bad....who knows.

The one great thing about these last two issues is that I'm learning a lot about my coach that I didn't know before.

prairieschooner
02-28-2010, 04:20 PM
the Circuitry that I was talking about doesn't check Fluid Levels although it would shut down the AC Generator in case of trouble.
Not sure that this is your problem since there are so many variables, just a "heads up".

chockwald
02-28-2010, 07:30 PM
Thanks, Steve.....if the fix isn't in the "box" the next thing will be the issue you are talking about. Since I've been able to start it bypassing the starter solenoid I'm inclined to think the issue is in the switch box, but I have been wrong before...haha!

Just returned from Urgent Care....I officially have tonsilitis and have been started on a round of antibiotics. Think I'll just take at easy the rest of the day...there's always tomorrow.

fulltiming
03-03-2010, 12:08 PM
Take care of yourself Clarke. Tonsilitis isn't fun as a kid and gets worse with age.

I know your genset is different than our diesel units but on ours, there is a fuse inside the control box on top of the generator. Hopefully it just blew due to moisture on a connector grounding out the power.

chockwald
03-03-2010, 02:56 PM
Morning Michael.....finally on the mend. I used to get tonsilitis a lot when I was young, and you are right...the worst case I ever had was in 1991 when I was 41. Fortunately, as I have gotten older the frequency has slowed way down.

I'm hoping it's a fuse also! Will update when I get a chance to get back over to the storage yard and open it up.

chockwald
03-08-2010, 05:57 AM
OK.....it stopped raining this morning so I went up to the coach and rolled out the genset again to open up the "controller" box (Kohler's term)....I call it the "switch" box. Anyway after checking all 4 switches that can be used to turn on and off the genset (one on the dash, one in the bathroom, one in the bedroom and the one on the "controller" box) and finding them all in proper working order I have narrowed down the problem to one of the relays inside the box, and more specifically the one on the right. I've ordered 3 new ones online today and hope to have them sometime this week. Here is a picture of the inside wiring and relays. As you will recall, the problem is that power is being sent to the trigger wire for the starter solenoid continuously, so one of the relays must be stuck in the "on" position. The relay on the right is slightly different than the other two so I have ordered one just like it, and duplicated the other two. Will replace one at a time to isolate which one is bad. Wish me luck!

By the way, there is one inline fuse inside the box, and it was OK.

chockwald
03-11-2010, 05:52 AM
OK...got the new relays in. I've just switched out the one on the right for now. I'll take the whole assembly up to the coach in the morning and plug it in and see what we have...fingers crossed!!! After studying the wiring schematic, Richard and I both agree that the one on the right is the one that powers the trigger wire for the starter solenoid, so we'll see.......

chockwald
03-12-2010, 02:30 AM
I know ya'll are just waitng with "baited breath" to hear how things came out......well, the 3 relays were not the problem....sigh! I first installed the "3CR" relay, and hooked her back up, then turned on the battery.....spontaneous starting again. So, I replaced the other two relays--1CR and 2CR (I ordered all 3...had to go to two different vendors as the 3CR relay is a different part # from the 1CR and 2CR relays), and still got the same result. The trigger wire for the starter solenoid continues to receive power all the time. I then crawled under the Newell and unscrewed the panel on the rear of the generator where all the 12 volt and 120 volt wiring comes out.....there are also two breaker switches back there for the 120 I assume. There is another 12 volt relay there that has wires running to the controller box, but it has a different number on it than the other 3. I tried looking up that part number (A410-366575-15) on Google like I did the others, but only got 1 hit, and it was a forum where some guy was trying to reconnect the wires to one of the 3 relays in the controller box that someone had disconnected. My next move is to call Kohler and see if they can tell me where to get that relay.

In the mean time I have resorted to Tom McCloud's solution to another electrical issue I had with the A/C last summer....we installed a temporary/permanent switch to turn off the A/C dryer manually since it was not cycling off automatically, and causing the system to ice up. I have installed a separate temporary/permanent ignition for the generator.....I disconnected the trigger wire from the starter solenoid spliced in a 10 foot piece of #14 wire and ran it up into the cockpit area to a push button switch, and then ran a wire from the other terminal on that push button switch back down to the starter solenoid, so I can now start it from inside the motorhome (temporarily I hope), but I have to also press the original starter switch to activate the propane solenoid so it will start. I can still turn off the generator by pushing the original switch to the "OFF" position.

So, that's my story, and I'm sticking to it. If anyone has any other ideas about what is causing power to be sent to the trigger 100% of the time, I am all ears. I just hate ordering one part after another, not really knowing what the problem is. I did an ohm test on all four toggle switches that can be used to start the generator and they all showed "0" at the neutral position, which I am assuming is what it should be.

HoosierDaddy
03-12-2010, 02:58 AM
Clarke,
It could be my ADD but I dont see where you mentioned checking the switch on your instrument panel. Could it be faulty?

chockwald
03-12-2010, 03:19 AM
That is one of the 4 switches I checked. I have a switch on the instrument panel, one in the bathroom, one in the bedroom, and, of course, the one on the controller box at the generator. All 4 checked out. The instrument panel switch is the one I have to push in conjuntion with the temporary starter switch to start the generator now. When I press the original switch it does send a signal to the propane solenoid, opening it up and allowing propane to flow into the engine.....is that totally confusing?

(Added 3-12-2010 at 7am).....I might add that Steve Ward has suggested that a better way to test the 4 toggle switches is for voltage, not resistance....I've been doing ohm tests, so when he gets back in town we'll hookup and, as Steve says, "put a meter on it!".

prairieschooner
03-12-2010, 03:24 AM
OK so now you have contradicted some earlier posts.
You posted (post #12) that this problem started out as NOT able to Start the AC Generator. Then (post #1 you jumped the Solenoid and wound up replacing it. Then (post #24) there is something about the Trigger staying Energized? This suggests that the original problem has changed.
I would suggest that you go back to the beginning and make sure that all Jumpers are removed and that the Circuitry is Restored, including the Original Solenoid and Relays.
The Relays are only Switches that the Contacts are Made or Disconnected with an Electrical Signal. They have what is called Normally Open or Normally Closed Contacts that Become Closed or Open after the Relay receives the Signal and becomes Energized.
I would Caution you not to Operate the AC Generator with something Jumpered to get it to Start. Without seeing the Schematic for your AC Generator I would bet that the Relays are used in a Circuit that is related to the Oil Pressure and Coolant Temperature.
This is just an opinion but you did ask for ideas in you last post. It is time to get out a Schematic and Troubleshoot this problem, replacing parts could get expensive.

prairieschooner
03-12-2010, 01:58 PM
Clarke,
I have been looking at the Schematic for your Genny.
1CR, 2CR and 3CR are Control Relays that are in the 12 Volts DC Circuit, they are most likely all the same with wires attached at the Terminals needed for that Relay's Purpose. 4CR is the Control Relay that is Energized with the AC Circuit after 3 Amp Fuse, Bridge Rectifier and small Transformer with the AC Generator portion of the Circuit.
The LOP Contact in the Stop Circuit (1CR Coil) is for Low Oil Pressure Shut Down and the HWT Contact in the Stop Circuit (1CR Coil) is for High Water Temperature Shut Down.
We are at the CRA Resort at Yuma Lakes, Tom knows where this is. I'll give you a call when we get back into So. CA and see if we can get together and put a Meter on this.

chockwald
03-12-2010, 02:54 PM
Steve.....when it comes to the electrical I am a mass of contradictions....haha! Thanks for calling last night. I finally found the 4CR relay on the wiring diagram! That is the one I found on the back side of the generator. It is yellow. 1CR and 2CR are both identical relays (same part number). 3CR is a different part number, and 4CR is a completely different part number (A410-366575-15) from the other 3. I was able to find the 3 in the controller box online. I am not able to find the 4CR online, so if we have to replace it we'll have to find something that is comparable...I'm sure you'll know what will work as a substitute if it needs to be replaced after you see the specs on the side of it. The 3 in the controller box have see through casings, while 4CR is yellow, and opaque. All 4 have 8 contacts, but not all contacts have wires attached, naturally. At any rate, look forward to hearing from you when you get back from Yuma. We'll make a weekend of it! Wherever we meet up let's be sure the pad is nice and smooth so we can get under the coach on the creepers easily.

One thing about this experience is that I'm getting used to being under the coach....of course I have liberally blocked the frame so I am not in danger of getting squished!

prairieschooner
03-12-2010, 03:31 PM
Actually the Relays have 8 Terminals. 2 of the Terminals are the Coil and the other Terminals are for the Contacts Normally Open Energized Closed or Normally Closed Energized Open, depending on the Circuit.

chockwald
03-12-2010, 04:08 PM
I'm sure I'm using the wrong terminology.....lol! See you in a couple of weeks!

prairieschooner
03-31-2010, 03:31 PM
Clarke,
We just got home last night from our travels. Let's try to find someplace to get a look at your AC Generator.

chockwald
03-31-2010, 03:32 PM
Clarke,
We just got home last night from our travels. Let's try to find someplace to get a look at your AC Generator.

OK.....where will you be this weekend? Or, next week for that matter?

prairieschooner
03-31-2010, 03:58 PM
most likely we will be at our cabin, nice to be home after 5 months.