Tankless Water Heaters

[2StrokeDiesel]

I would like to eliminate the conventional water heater tank and go with a tankless water heater. I want a system that can provide enough hot water in a relatively short amount of time for several people to shower, shave, etc.

[DavidBall]

depending on how you operate your coach (Park or boondocking) would be to choose an alternative. If you drive or run your generator quite a bit you could opt for a hot water tank which has an internal (marine) coil wherein you could circulate the hot water from your engine or generator and make hot water while that source is running.

Another choice would be, a solar heat exchanger on the roof, or remote (which would require a small circulating pump) which would ask Old Sol(The Sun) to heat your water for you. The downside of that is a well insulated storage tank, of some capacity, to retain the heated water.

There doesn't seem to be any easy or inexpensive choices that I know of.

[lbrachfe]

Wondering if the conventional small undersink tankless coil box would supply enough water fast enough ? Anybody have some input on this ?

[prairieschooner]

probably not enough for showers.

[rellick]

I am considering one of these tankless water heaters in my 77, I see they are quite common in the rv world, has anyone tried one? most I have looked at are propane only, that would suit me fine.
I changed out the one in my house to a tankless and we like it, the only downside I have found is it does take a bit longer for it to reach the tap, but it never runs out.

[jack14r]

I have one in my Liberty along with a 20 gallon conventional water heater,we do not want to run out of hot water in the shower and this is plumed to the shower after the conventional water heater,it draws 38 amps on both legs of 240 volts if it is turned wide open.Liberty added this so it is only wired to work with the generator,so if I am plugged in I can start the gen after my wife gets out of the shower and never run out of hot water.It is so small it could be installed anywhere and they make different sizes,I will look at the label and report the brand later.

[folivier]

If you have the Raritan water heater you can change out the electric element to a 2000 watt as long as your wiring is adequate. It's a common element found at Lowe's etc. I did this on my '93 and it helped the recovery rate compared to the standard 1250 watt element. Not a tankless but a simple and cheap thing to try first.

[rellick]

That is an option I might try Forest, it is a raritan with a 1250 element, are the 2000 watt 110 volt also? I have my plumbing bay gutted and thought id change things up a bit, but you have me thinking. I have a webaso diesel heater I was thinking of installing also.
Jack I like your idea also, electric would be an easier hook up than LP, maybe I wont throw out the raritan quite yet.

[jack14r]

I do have the Raritan and do not want to increase the wattage because the amperage draw while plugged in with 4 cruise airs running and other electrical items is around 35-40 continuous,my problem is showers one right after the other,I doubt that the 2000 watt element would help us much.I do agree that the recovery rate of the Raritan is slow,it draws about 10 amps on 110 volts.I did look at the tankless heater and it is a Titan and I think that it is manufactured in Florida,it has been in my coach for 5 years and has performed perfectly.

[folivier]

I spoke with Raritan a couple years back when the original element burnt out. They said it was a common element and a 2000 would work. They also said it could be converted to a 240v unit by redoing the wiring and using a 240v element. So that may be another option to get a faster recovery. But I'd check with them.
Here is an email I received from Kim at Raritan Engineering:
Hi Forest you can change to a 240V element the witing is just a bit different, you would need to consult the manual for the difference in the 240 Wiring but other than that there is nothing else you would need to do.

Please let me know if you require additional info.

THanks
Kim

Here is the link for the owners manual: http://www.raritaneng.com/pdf_files/water_heater/L206v0911.pdf

[rellick]

Thanks guys, I will check into those options, the element in the raritan is not working anyway and I am at the point I can change whatever I want, everything is going to be rebuilt or repaced, starting with the floor. I do like the stainless steel water tank it originally came with, perhaps ill give it a polish before I reinstall it, ill have to wear sunglasses when I open my plumbing bay!!rollinglol

[rellick]

I searched high and low for a water heater both on demand and the same as original, everyone I talked to just had a puzzled look on thier face when I talked about engine coolant in a water heater, both rv places and water heater places, I didnt even bother with any marine dealers, but i am sure they would be able to order one in. All the places I looked didnt even have a new element for my old one, until I stopped in at the small town hardware store in Sexsmith, and low and behold covered in a bit of dust with the package that has some damage on it was an element for the water heater!! 1500watt Not sure how long it was sitting there for but it sits there no longer!!lol!

[MrE]

Not sure of the quality, but Atwood makes 6 and 10 gallon water heaters that are LP and electric with heat exchangers. GCH6A-10E and GCH10A-4E http://www.atwoodmobile.com/images/waterheater.pdf

[Neweller]

I had Raritan's in all three Newell's. The one in the '78 had almost constant hot water and any recovery rate was very quick. I never had a lick of trouble with it, so I never had to break into it for repairs. It was virtually new when I acquired the coach and lasted through two other owners after I used it extensively while building a home, in fact 4 persons using it every morning for almost a year without fail and we seldom waited on water to heat back up. Now I'm not talking 20 minute showers either. I wish I would have known what element was in it, but I don't.

[rellick]

One of those would be the answer, on my coach it would be tricky venting the lp. I will use the old one for now, here is a couple of pics of the bay floor, wood on steel is how it was built, I am going to add some more crossmembers to take the sag out of the floor and put aluminum with no wood. The old wood was removed with a shovel and a shopvac...

[folivier]

I'll have to dig it up again but someone makes a tankless with a forced air exhaust which should work if you vent out of the floor of the compartment.

[MrE]

Keith, if I had your ambition I would probably redo all my plumbing in color coded pex.

[rellick]

Forest, are they the powervent style with the abs or pvc intake and exhaust? I could probably work with that. I am not to keen on hacking any holes in the side of the coach.
Jon I do plan on using pex tubing, with all new valves etc. Ill check on red and blue for hot and cold, sounds good

[Neweller]

Keith, if I had your ambition I would probably redo all my plumbing in color coded pex.

Jon, I still have the stamina, but not the back and body flexibility. Stretching does do wonders, but once I'm near healed from my hernia problem, I think it's time to get serious into yoga and such.

Keith, that is quite the additional task you have to endure but once your done you can always say I'm glad that part is over with and feel good about what you have. lol!

[rellick]

Well I decided to beef up the structure, also fixing the sag. I ran a piece of 1x1 along the outside edge then sistered another 1-1/2 tubing along side. then tied all of it together with the cross members. Sealed it all then put a coat of POR15 on everything. Tomorrow ill put a sealer strip on top of the supports then install 3/16 aluminum sheets on top with stainless rivets, then seal it in.
My tanks and plumbing are next....

[Neweller]

This is how we do it! Great work Keith as you are on the ball as usual. Now it will be interesting having aluminum down there vs. steel. I guess with the sealing strip things should be good eh'. What kind and how thick of sealing strip material are you going to be using? How do you think stainless would perform? Probably not worth the price.

[rellick]

It has a coating of por15 on the steel already, the sealing strip I have is the same as what is used for metal roofing, around 1/4 thick but will squish down. its like a heavy gutter seal comes in a roll, shouldn't have anymore rust issues, and no more wood to trap moisture. I think ill put my tanks on some uhmw strips.
Stainless would be nice but I think the aluminum will be more than adequate, the thin steel and wood they had lasted 35 years.

[Neweller]

Stainless would be nice but I think the aluminum will be more than adequate, the thin steel and wood they had lasted 35 years.[/QUOTE]

You're right on that. I always wonder why Newell never opted for stainless tubing and structure like Wanderlodge had, at least on the later units that I'm aware of. The thing with the wood never made sense to me at all, I have seen many coaches with it and many with rust. I always assumed that the wood was put in place as a cheap easy fix vs. replacing the steel but I have seen it on later coaches too....

[NewellCrazy]

Keith,

Your a makeover animal! She's looking good! Keep up the hard work Keith your an inspiration to all!

[MrE]

Keith,

Your a makeover animal! She's looking good! Keep up the hard work Keith your an inspiration to all!

I would be interested in what the cost would be for the full 'Keith' make-over. Pretty sure it would be less than the cost of a new 'cookie cutter' motorhome that will lose a substantial percentage of the purchase price when it's driven off the lot. Newell's are built for a million plus miles, the cookie cutters are an exception if they make a hundred thousand. (and God forgive if you get into an accident)

[Neweller]

Jon, I agree with you totally on everything you have stated about the quality differences of the cookie cutter vs. Newell.

Hey if Keith wanted to, he could actually be the guy that built a new retro-designed replacement coach like a classic Newell from the ground up with all the latest technology rolled into one. He's just another like L.K. Newell in the making. There would be bus nuts, Wanderlodge, Barth, and Newell owners alike jumping on board for one. I'm actually pretty serious when I say this, because I know of a few and some have opted for rigs like class 5 and 7 coach builds. Right now things are just a hobby but professional for him. Now, I was just sharing what I was just day dreaming with you all...:cool:

[rellick]

Well we got to the bottom of the major rust issues in the plumbing bay. The black tank was corroded and was leaking. So we put a new bottom in it and a couple of patches where it needed. the original tank was 1/8 aluminum and we put 3/16 bottom and also cut off the 3'' threaded fittings and replaced them with aluminum pipe. Now our connections will have a rubber coupling from the tank to the toilet and the discharge valves, I think this will be and improvement over the rigid threads that were also in bad shape. Were all pressure tested and will be installing it tomorrow. The green sheet is aluminum, we put a coat of sealer on it and gave it a coat of some real nice gray endura paint, the green is the sealer/primer. It will be going into the floor of the plumbing bay.
The storage bay is going to get some nice automotive carpet and will be sealed from the plumbing bay. We didnt feel paint was needed on the floor of it.
BTW I realize I highjacked my own post here, not sure if its fixable or not and apologize for that. I guess it should have been called plumbing bay rust restoration, or something along those lines.

[rellick]

Here is a couple of before and after pics of my plumbing bay, everything is solid and works well, no more leaks. I still have to polish the tanks a bit more but its very usable, and get some new sil plates bent. just put another 1200 miles on, half was in the mountains. She tends to warm up some on the steep grades but we need to clean the rad.
The hot water is too hot from the heat exchanger waterheater, has anyone added a mixing valve, or a cross over pipe to mix cold with the hot? I am surprised it doesnt have something, probably on the later models. Its fine on 110v it has a thermostat. I think I will try a crossover pipe with a valve. A thermostat controlled valve would be the answer

[Neweller]

Great job Keith! :thumbsup: I see you put the tanks up on bases which should be a whole lot better than laying completely on wood which seems to be in most cases. It's amazing to this day that there are many improvements that can still be done to upgrade these classics as well as even the later coaches if not even the new ones.

I was just thinking about the cross-over tube and I did something like that on one of my coaches but don't believe it was done by the Newell factory but by someone that had redone the bay. Maybe someone that has a later coach can chime in on what they may have in the way of a thermostat.......

[larryweikart]

I'm not as knowledgeable as you fellows but my coach has a thermostat on the shower knob which can be turned until you find the temp you prefer!

[rellick]

Not sure if these are the same as you have Larry but I am going to order one of these thermostatic mixing valves for my coach, http://www.wattsindustries.com/images1/9/PDF/BrochureWattsThermostaticMixingValves.pdf
This way the hot water can be set quite high, or in my case about 190 deg with the heat exchanger and 140 deg with 110v it will automatically mix with cold to give the desired output temp. thus having more hot water for showering etc. No electricity needed works on temp. similar to a thermostat in an engine.

[larryweikart]

I have one very similar to the one shown by "Bath Manufacturer". It has always worked very well.

[77newell]

One of those would be the answer, on my coach it would be tricky venting the lp. I will use the old one for now, here is a couple of pics of the bay floor, wood on steel is how it was built, I am going to add some more crossmembers to take the sag out of the floor and put aluminum with no wood. The old wood was removed with a shovel and a shopvac...

Keith: You are probably too far along now but I rebuilt my water bay using WEST epoxy coated plywood for the flooring. The sheet was cut to size and any holes cut before epoxying the thing with three coats of epoxy. I left in place the existing steel sheet that had multiple cut holes and corrosion holes. I sprayed all that metal with used engine oil to rust-proof it and then put sheet galvanized steel laid over that before the ply went on. I also built an epoxy coated/lined waste tank to replace the 1/4" steel original tank that leaked in hidden places which is one reason the original uncoated floor went. The nice thing about the coated ply floor is that it kept all the dimensions close to original while gaining protection from any "loose water". I also put an epoxy coated lip around the edge of the floor to keep any water from trickling over the edges rather than draining at intended spots.

[rellick]

Hi Jon, Yes my floor is pretty much finished other than new sil plates and automitive carpet in the storage bay, I wanted to get rid of any wood all together, and the main structure (1-1/2 tubing was starting to sag), I also added the 1-1/2 and 1x1 tubing along the edge under the sils to add alot more strength to the sides, all there was there was a small piece of 1/8 steel bent in a C shape with the aluminum skin riveted to it, This also having somewhere to tie in my new cross members, any side impact here will be the pity of anything that runs into it. All the steel got coated with por15. My waste tank is 1/8 aluminum, probably would have been easier to build new but time and materials were the issue, I put a whole new bottom in it and some side pieces with 3/16, and all new fittings, ( got rid of the the threaded and went with pipe for rubber couplers). This way there is room for any movement. Newell had the tanks sitting on wood bases that were rotten also, so I built some out of aluminum tubing, then put a strip of rubber weatherstrip between the tank and the base. The floor is 3/16 aluminum painted with endura and installed with metal roof sealant, sikaflex and 3/16 stainless rivets. I had no issues with dimensions, I put new holes in where the new plumbing had to go.
I like the idea of the epoxy coated tank, that would definately help preserve the inside of the tank, I do plan on doing that. these tanks are easy enough to pull in an out. What did you make your new tank out of? I think the tank leakage is the culprit in alot of these older Newells rust issues, the rest of the coach is pretty good other than the battery bays that need some attention. Did your 77 have the heat exchanger water heater? was there some kind of mixing valve in it?