Engine Upgrade Ideas for Your Luxury Coach?

[Neweller]

Be warned, this post is intended for "Gear Heads" and maybe the person thinking about fuel economy.

I have spoken with and conversed with many Newell and other luxury coach owners whom have expressed interest or have questions regarding upgrading from an older engine to a later model engine. Mainly taking a V-Series engine to an Inline engine. This has been a major concern of mine as well. I have been stuck on the idea of my next coach having an inline 6 cylinder diesel.

Some of you seem to be in love with your old DD, Cummins or CAT V-6 or V-8 Diesels and that's a good thing, as somebody needs to like them. I have just found that once those engines are neglected the expense can go through the roof real quick. And if you run across a so-called $deal like many I have heard thought they had, a lot of times a new owner has just obtained a new hidden "huge" expense; a possible motor ready to puke on them.

The cost of re-building a V Series Detroit Diesel is pretty much unrealistic at today's costs unless you get lucky or you are doing the work yourself and just love the old rougher idling slobber jobbers. rollinglol Ok, don't get mad at me for laughing. I have spent my share on $$$ on these drippers and I'm also wanting to stick up for some of you guys out there thinking about changing out or upgrading your existing "V" engines. Maybe I'm being a little facetious here picking on some of our old beloved engines. Hey the bus guys have no problem being honest about them. Heck, they called them slobber pigs. I admit many of the well taken care of older engines are very much diamonds and there is no reason for most to ever think about changing them out and I'm not trying to imply this.

What's kind of bugging me, is the fact that many bus-converters feel its worth the effort to upgrade a bus from the same old engines but some Newell guys are afraid of the idea. There have been many "would be" Newell buyers that have expressed interest in the idea.

Now, this is my opinion and as most of you know and understand, opinions are like _____ and we all have one. This is just my hair brain thoughts on the matter. Some of you will cheer me on and others will ask what planet I just got off?

My additional thoughts are if you are going to spend $20,000 on an old engine, why not upgrade? Myself I would pay extra for a coach that has a newer type engine and pay nothing extra for one that has the old style engines. After talking to most owners of the newer coaches, this is why they want a newer coach. The ENGINE! Series 60 etc........

I truly believe the Newell's with updated drive train, mainly the engine will hold its value much better than a none updated unit. I'm saying if you already have a need to re-build your engine, you may want to seriously consider this option, of course need to know you can get a good job done for the right money.

We're not talking about a "Butcher Job" but a Sanitary Upgrade". I've seen them and everything looks like it should and works like it should.

[Chester B. Stone, Jr.]

Like you say -- opinions. Mine is that the older V Detroits were some of the best engines one could hope for, parts are still available and cheaper than for many engines. Also, reconditioned blocks are also readily available. To switch to a straight 6 would entail great cost and risk. Probably the transmission and differential gear ratio would also have to be changed as well as all of the systems that support the engine. I would never attempt this, but then this is my opinion.

[Neweller]

Chester, thank you for your opinion. Many others share similar thoughts as yours and I too was once sold on the same idea. After talking with many owners of Newell's and other model luxury coaches over the years, I've kind of established some other thoughts.

While owning the three different Newell's over the past ten years, I kept running into the same problem as many continue too, and that is availability of obtaining two-stroke diesel engine oil, having some nut mechanic who thinks he knows what hes doing when it comes to some of these older engines, to only screw things up and guess what, at the owners expense.

The older engine mechanics are starting to become a little rare now days and far and few between. During the nineties and early 2000's you could get a company with a ton of know-how like Southern Oregon Diesel to do an later model engine upgrade for around $26,000. For example; this company would take a customers bus-conversion, Wanderlodge or Newell and swap out the old "V" engine for a new inline Cummins.

Bus-conversions for example with an updated engine would almost always sell for more money and sell much quicker with this upgrade compared to one with the old V series engines. Marathon had did many like this. Most nowadays mechanics understand or know these newer engines. I'm not one to say; take out your great running 8v92 and change it, even though I would consider it now with the connection I have recently established.

Personally I have been in a couple of situations where I was stuck having a very long expensive tow to some shop that had enough experience on the older engines. I learned the hard way that I best haul extra two-stroke oil with me.

I just recently spoke with a gentleman that has done hundreds of these conversions over the years who pulls 6 and 8V's out all the time, to upgrade for bus company's. He says he can do the conversion for less money than you will have invested in a rebuild from a good shop. In fact one of the more recent jobs, they removed a 8v92 with only 7000 miles on a beautiful reman in a nice motorcoach to put in a Series 60. The 8v92 was sold very reasonable to another coach owner who was very happy getting a screaming deal on a low mileage two-stroke.

This particular guy I'm talking about can do an upgrade, make all the necessary modification to make a job look like it came out of the factory this way. Another electrical specialist builds a beautiful new wiring harness to complement the new marriage. I have spoken with a large tour bus fleet owner whom states this guy is the real deal and the his company has millions of tested miles with this guys upgraded conversions and best of all a bunch of shops can do maintenance whenever needed. No more engine oil change mistakes and so on......

[express1]

Simple, buy mine and your DONE!:thumbsup:

[Neweller]

Simple, buy mine and your DONE!:thumbsup:

Matt, your are absolutely right. Your coach is ready to go and somebody should be jumping on that purchase. It's a beautiful well maintained coach and anyone that is looking for a Series 60 turn key ready to go, ought to buy it as long as the rest of details pencil out for them. I'm looking at being into my next Newell for less, because I have to give it my own finishing touches without taking it to far over the top, if you know what I mean.

I am firm on the next coach needs to either have or be upgraded to a Series 60 or I'll wait it out this time around. I'm not jumping on another deal unless it meets that minimum requirement. I don't dislike the 8v92's I just don't want to go down that road again. I've had my share of them and they are great engines and I'll let someone else own and maintain them. I'm the kind of guy that likes to take an old car, completely modify the thing with an updated engine and wiring etc.... It's in my blood. Out with the old and in with the new. Go with the retro and so forth...

Give me a '67 Nova 2dr HT and I'm going to shove a 502 BB with a 6 spd manual in it, add a TPI or SFI sytem, coil-overs, mini-tubs and then some sweet interior and paint. Call me crazy, picky and Mr. Extreme. :thumbup:

If I don't buy a late 90's Newell, then I'll opt for a 90-95 and do what I'm talking about here. I'm sure I will find some believers out there whom will say "now that is the gig"!

So, here's the BIG ????? Are there any PLAYERS out there beside little ole' ME?:(y): If so, Let's break some bread and step out on the WILD side around here.


P.S. Folks I'm not trying to insult anyone here or talk anyone into going this route. Believe me, if someone doesn't care for the idea, I'm definitely cool with that. I've been hanging out with some crazy gear head bus guys.lol!

[Gone Busing]

Ken, we would be interested in knowing more about what your referencing here. We too like the idea of the 60 series engines. If what your saying is a real viable option then this might open up options on a couple of coaches we had been considering.

[Neweller]

Jay, sorry for not responding sooner. The auto-responder had been turned off on the forum and is now back on.

I know you have counted out a lot good bargains on mid 95's and earlier model Newell's, do to also wanting a Series 60. If you can't find the deal you after and don't want to buy our brother express1's glorified beauty that is ready to go racing (I mean trippin'), then you may want to consider this other option. Heck, I might be crazy enough to swap out an old engine to a newer much more efficient inline-6 and throw a couple of slides into the mix in the future, if things go right. In fact I might just take any wide-body classic and just go for it, just because I'm freakin' crazy!:clap2: What would be even more crazier is if I decided to stretch a classic another five feet. So, this should really make me sound crazy, right?rollinglol

Question for some others is, do you need a good running two-stroke or Newell parts? We will accomplish a couple of things here; one being there will be some extra two-strokes available and two; there will be some hopped up Newell's running around and many of them will be classic's to boot.

Jay, sorry about the ramblin, it's Sunday the first day of another fine week of life. Which ever way you decide to go brother, we'll be here for you!

[ccjohnson]

Ken,
You're forgetting the sound of an 8V92! It's unique! A lot like a Harley-Davidson motorcycle. Also, 500HP is 500HP whether it's DD60 series or 8V92.

[folivier]

500HP = 500HP True, but if you've ever pulled out at the same time as a series 60 you might be surprised. My 39' 500HP can't quite keep up with a 45' 500HP series 60. Of course the 6 speed tranny makes a difference.

[rellick]

The newer engines are quieter, dont leak or smoke and they are better on fuel. I like classic anything , just old engines are old engines. I think when I am done with mine I just might build another one. Anyone know of any classics out there in need of some tlc let me know,:thumbup:

[Neweller]

Clint, that is the most sense I have heard for keeping the old ramblers. I appreciate the nostalgia of it all and love the sounds of different engines including the 6V DD and 8V DD. You sure know when they are rolling by don't you and if you don't like those drafters, well throttle things up. Kind of like a 392 Hemi vs. a 426 Hemi or if we are talking Harley we could say Vance and Hines with and without a baffle. Am I making any sense here. lol! Now lets talk economic sense on these beast we love. hmmm.......... I do support both thoughts, keeping or changing out the old rascals.

Oh, I almost forgot about what Forrest was pointing out; the thought about how important the 0-60mph times could make a difference when you want to get rolling out onto the Louisiana Scenic Bayou Byway.:thumbup:

[rellick]

Clint, I mean no disrepect for old engines, some are definately worth keeping, mine however is a 555 cummins, my last Harley wast a 1968 pan/shovel and nothing sounded sweeter, shovelheads are my favorite sounding engine, but they do take quite a bit of tinkering to keep them on the road. I had a 1958 chev apache pick-up back in the 80's we pulled the orig 6cyl out and put a 425hp 396 in t400 auto with 4:88 posi rear end, 10.5 seconds in a 1/4 mile with slicks. So please don't get me wrong about old engines I love certain ones,just the 555 cummins and the 3208 cat were reputabley crappy engines in my opinion.

[Sweet Home]

You guys have peaked my interest here. I have looked at some different brands of luxury coaches and last summer met some Newell owners with a 2004 which I really liked. The pricing they were telling me for theirs kind of turned me off a bit until I ran across this site via another referral. I now realize there are other options on these sweet MH's. After being a reader on here for a couple of months and reading different things about them I'm thinking real hard about the discussion here. Can you help me with finding a good candidate for this kind of upgrade? I really want something with a current power plant. Thanks

[MrE]

Check the classifieds (NewellClassifieds.com (http://www.newellclassifieds.com/)) or the Internet. If you want a more contemporary looking coach, the 1990-1994 Newells came with 8V92s and prior to 1990 was the Classic and depending on year could have come with an assortment of V6 and V8 diesel motors. No matter what year you look at, the Newell coaches are all built to go over a million miles. Neweller put this out this thread with pictures of an updated 1982 to give you an idea what can be done. http://www.luxurycoachlifestyle.com/forum/classic-luxury-coach-inspirations/4387-whether-you-classic-luxury-coach-lover-not-82-newell-has-going.html

You guys have peaked my interest here. I have looked at some different brands of luxury coaches and last summer met some Newell owners with a 2004 which I really liked. The pricing they were telling me for theirs kind of turned me off a bit until I ran across this site via another referral. I now realize there are other options on these sweet MH's. After being a reader on here for a couple of months and reading different things about them I'm thinking real hard about the discussion here. Can you help me with finding a good candidate for this kind of upgrade? I really want something with a current power plant. Thanks

[rellick]

Im with you on the Newer powerplant, upgrading a older Newell is a great idea, they are very well constructed, (good bones) for those who like to personalize and add their own tastes. Possibilities are endless. My 38' 77 is getting an 8.3 cummins 325hp inline 6cyl.and allison MD3060 transmission, Any bigger coach a 60 series DD would be the answer. I'm thinking about adding a slide, upgrading tv's, countertops, upholstery etc. The outside was repainted in the 90s so it still looks great. There are people out there doing these kinds of upgrades. Keep looking you will find one. If not, I may have one or two upgraded ones in the next year or so for sale!!

[Neweller]

Hi Karl & Lita and a official welcome to the community. So you own a fiver eh? I know a little about them. A luxury coach or motorhome is really a different world, maybe we can entice you into joining the ranks. Many around here, including myself will gladly try to steer you in the right direction. You can see both Jon (MrE) and Keith (Rellick) posts above references this. Decide on what features and style rock your boat and we will try to help you spend your money. :thumbup:

If you really like the idea presented here, I will gladly hook you up with the guys to accomplish the mechanical task on things, otherwise depending on budget you could get something ready to go. You will find around here many DIY white-knuckle guys, gearheads, and maybe some grease monkeys with different traits and talents. Now there are a whole bunch of owners who also just consider themselves "Ground Pilots" and mainly just drive these baby's all over the place. I probably fit into all of these categories depending on the season of things.

We all just figure out a way to get along around here in this great luxury coach lifestyle, so come on in and join the action! Glad your here!:thumbsup:

[GORDON HUMMEL]

Ken,
I looked into this some years ago, when fuel was 1/2 the price it is now. I would have had to drive 300K miles to pay for the fuel savings.

The engine cost was about 1/2 of the total when I ran the numbers. With the limited RPM range of the 4 stroke, a 6 speed is almost a must, & those things are not cheap. Also an axle ratio change might be required.

Secondly, does the radiator get moved to the side & an CMC added. I can't imagine a rad mounted behind a S60 & not sticking out the back !

[Neweller]

Gordon, I understand exactly what you are saying with regards to upgrading with the sole purpose of saving fuel, that is kind of why I threw that it in my original post as an additional option. My sole purpose would not be to only gain fuel economy, but it would be an added plus. Honestly, the 6V92's and 8V92's are great engines and even more so back in prime era for that engine. Kind of like an old Chevy 409 vs. a 454. Both are great engines with plenty of power, but the 454 is more feasible to maintain. This may not be the best example, I'm just trying to make a mini statement here.:dontknow: Might as well jump on the bandwagon here and get some of these coaches ready for the next generation of owners and mechanics.:cheers:

The main reason I got off on this tangent in the first place, was to offer some other optional ideas for those mainly needing to change out a bad engine or needing major repairs and I know of a handful of Newell owners in facing this particular dilemma. Actually the number just jumped from 4 to 5 and I believe 3 or 4 are 8v's. I could mention them but I don't know if the owners want me to share this since they themselves have not. None of these owners have started overalls as far as I know. Two are heavily considering a Series 60. If it wasn't for a tough economy most of these coaches would have already had engines done.

I have a local shop that will do the upgrade conversion including a low mileage Series 60 engine for less money than the average shop will charge to rebuild the original older engine. Gear change is much less than one would think and if you are doing it at the same time as the engine it's almost peanuts. A current project in the works has an 8 speed transmission going into a 1981 bus.

I should probably add that I don't actually advocate changing out a perfectly sound running older Detroit for a newer engine unless is in need of replacement or you have deep pockets and like having that sort of thing. I've been thinking of doing it just to do it and show it being done. Giving owners another option as well as those that I speak to from time to time that would rather drive a POS Cracker Jack Class A because it has a modern drive-train.....

My hat goes off to those whom love their fantastic V92's and those whom love their newer engines.:bandit:

[rellick]

Hi Gordon, a 8.3 runs the same rpms as the 6v, and was informed has more torque. My gear ratios are the same as the 90s coaches with the same engine trans combo, 5:29. I will be using the side rad that came with the engine. Should be close to the same cost as a rebuild on a DD. When its finished. Ill be posting pics and info as I go.

[MrE]

Can't wait until the 2 stroke diesel OPOC engines are available. (Opposed Piston Opposed Cylinder)

325 hp (currently being tested) opoc™ engine module (two coupled with a clutch to achieve 650 hp) licensed by a major engine developer for an unmanned military Helicopter with an achievable weight of 450lbs and measures 15.8in x 35in x 41.5in

Advanced Propulsion Technologies, Inc. (http://www.propulsiontech.com/opocfamily.html)

An extremely lightweight opposed piston opposed cylinder (OPOC) engine has been developed under a Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency (DARPA) program. FEV and Advanced Propulsion Technologies (APT) were asked by the U.S. Army Tank Automotive Research Development and Engineering Center (TARDEC) to modify this engine for heavy-truck applications. Analyzing the two stroke scavenging, the side-injection combustion, and the structure of the key components shows the potential of the OPOC concept. It is predicted for the 465 kW (650 hp) OPOC truck engine. The OPOC engine was designed to be modular. Each module is self-contained and delivers 325 hp. The modules are connected together via the Modular Displacement Clutch, which synchronizes the modules for achieving even firing when both modules are functioning. With an optimized scavenging process, the special design features of the OPOC engine offer a significant step towards the potential of the two-stroke engine having double the power density of a four-stroke engine. An estimated 90% scavenging efficiency has been achieved with unique gas exchange characteristics of the OPOC engine and the use of an electric assisted turbocharger. The OPOC engine runs with almost two times the engine speed (3800 rpm) along with a large cylinder stroke (167.53 mm), as a result of the split stroke of the opposed piston structure. This also improves the power density by another factor of 2.

http://www.engineeringtv.com/video/Opposed-Piston-Opposed-Cylinder

http://www.ecomotors.com/

[Neweller]

Jon, you plan on building a drone helicopter? Then you can get a govment job when you retire! And the way this govment works, you can't be fired.rollinglol:behindsofa:

Actually, kind of sounds like a cool engine design. I wonder how loud they actually are?

[rellick]

That would make a great jetboat engine, thanks for the post!Can't wait until the 2 stroke diesel OPOC engines are available. (Opposed Piston Opposed Cylinder)

325 hp (currently being tested) opoc™ engine module (two coupled with a clutch to achieve 650 hp) licensed by a major engine developer for an unmanned military Helicopter with an achievable weight of 450lbs and measures 15.8in x 35in x 41.5in

Advanced Propulsion Technologies, Inc. (http://www.propulsiontech.com/opocfamily.html)

An extremely lightweight opposed piston opposed cylinder (OPOC) engine has been developed under a Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency (DARPA) program. FEV and Advanced Propulsion Technologies (APT) were asked by the U.S. Army Tank Automotive Research Development and Engineering Center (TARDEC) to modify this engine for heavy-truck applications. Analyzing the two stroke scavenging, the side-injection combustion, and the structure of the key components shows the potential of the OPOC concept. It is predicted for the 465 kW (650 hp) OPOC truck engine. The OPOC engine was designed to be modular. Each module is self-contained and delivers 325 hp. The modules are connected together via the Modular Displacement Clutch, which synchronizes the modules for achieving even firing when both modules are functioning. With an optimized scavenging process, the special design features of the OPOC engine offer a significant step towards the potential of the two-stroke engine having double the power density of a four-stroke engine. An estimated 90% scavenging efficiency has been achieved with unique gas exchange characteristics of the OPOC engine and the use of an electric assisted turbocharger. The OPOC engine runs with almost two times the engine speed (3800 rpm) along with a large cylinder stroke (167.53 mm), as a result of the split stroke of the opposed piston structure. This also improves the power density by another factor of 2.

http://www.engineeringtv.com/video/Opposed-Piston-Opposed-Cylinder

[Neweller]

Keith, that is exactly what I was thinking and why I was wondering how loud they might be? Didn't want something that would scare away all the fish. First thing I thought of was, Keith might like these for the Jet Boats. Heck, I might like one for that reason too. I'm thinking Jon might want to stack a couple for his pusher?

[MrE]

Pretty impressive power to weight ratio for a standard motor Could you imagine getting 20mpg in your Newell, they're predicting 100mpg out of a car?

[rellick]

I wonder what the price tag will be? And how many years of production it will take for it to come down? It would be nice to know someone in r&d. Might have to put a kicker motor to sneak up on the fish Ken!lol:laugh: Some of the 2stroke jets will run the exhaust through the pump exiting the rear and down into the water, they are fairly quiet. My ZZ4 350 chev in my boat will burn 80 gallons/200miles motor and pump weight is about 700lbs.

[Neweller]

After recently talking with my diesel engine mechanic, I am told that a DT 466/530 engines would make a great donor engine on an early classic with the CAT or

Cummins 555. Or if you have a shot Detroit too. This motor would fit in the coaches with the lower clearance engine compartment and be very inexpensive to

maintain or ever rebuild. Non-electronic would be the easiest for the swap vs. the electronic versions but a little less hp. A 170 hp can be turned up to 250 hp with

just adjusting the fuel rate setting and other reasonably priced accessories can get you even more. The 466E can easily go 350 hp with 850 ft/lbs and if you want

to go racing, you will have to dig deeper into your pockets.:o But more horsepower is definitely doable with turbos, injectors, and p-pump upgrades. For every 50

cc's of fuel will yield another 100 hp.

[rellick]

The DT466 is a great engine, I had one in a gravel truck and it was easier on fuel than our 1/2 ton suburban!! They had them in a lot of school busses

[Neweller]

A local guy was telling me that he has a '95 straight truck with the 466 and it has over 700,000 actual miles on it and still running. They go quite a bit longer than the CAT engine in the same type of application. The mechanic said that when he worked for International for a number of years that a lot of the engines they rebuilt had over a half million miles. Because of the cost of building them up and the very high HP potential that can be derived, they are now becoming popular in sled pull and diesel dragsters.:thumbup:

[Neweller]

Here are some pictures of a Series 60 shoved into an older Eagle bus conversion. My mechanic friend just finished this job last week and it ran out wonderfully. The conversion is back at its owners to have its interior finished up over the next few months. The coach owner has had a few engines upgrades done this way and claims the financial return on investment is 2-4 times the cost to do it. That tells me something.

These pictures are about halfway into the install of the Series 60 after the old DD was removed which by the way is an available runner. There was a little more paint touch up before it left the shop. It's up to the customer how much time they want put into the painting preparations. He can paint the engine compartment and so forth if requested.

36113612

[Neweller]

Here's a shot of the radiator side and a closer one of the engine. Remember this is being updated on something like a 30 year old bus that probably seen close to a couple million miles in its life.

361336143615My son took these pictures and I will try and get a picture of the completed.

[Neweller]

Here are a couple more pics.

36163617