HWH air leveling service?????

[HoosierDaddy]

Took my '93 to Stuarts repair in Elkhart, IN to have the HWH air leveler repaired...It was not working when I bought the coach. Stuarts are highly recommended for HWH work. They called today and said "sorry we cant fix it" It appears to them that Newell used HWH components and did the wiring themselves. Evidently the coach wont fit their lift so they would have to crawl around to work on it. They said to take it back to Newell or to HWH service facility in Iowa. I'm hoping to find somebody closer who can fix it. It seems to me that a company recommended service center should be equipped to repair whatever is needed.
To their credit they have not asked me to pay for their time to estimate the job.

A bit frustrated!!!
Dean

[fulltiming]

That is a bummer Dean. Do you have the toggle switch controls or the HWH Computerized Leveling keypad?

It was my understanding that the manually operated toggle switch model was probably put together by Newell but that the automatic system with the HWH keypad was a fairly standard HWH system other than the manifold. I have the HWH manual that was included with my '92 model and there is a note in the manual that reads:
Air manifolds are made by Newel [sic] and may be different than manifolds show in this wiring diagram.
A call to Newell's tech support should have been able to get them any information that they needed to properly diagnose the problem.

[encantotom]

what exactly is wrong with your leveling system? most things are not that hard to repair yourself.

[HoosierDaddy]

Thanks for the replys!!!
My Newell has the 500 series flat panel control. The left front and the left rear is low. There is a hose under the dash that is disconnected and blowing air. Wiring is disconnected-missing near the solenoid blocks front and rear. Air is leaking from one of the pressure regulators on the rear block. There is air leaking from under the left front as well. There is no response to any input to the panel. I disconnected the air lines from the rear block and installed a "T" with a schrader valve so I could "air up" the left rear enough so it wouldn't rub. I probably possess higher than average mechanical skills but am somewhat overwhelmed by the multitude of problems that are apparent....I'm not sure if the control panel is functional since it was slightly damaged by the vandals. Stuarts Service is located near Dave Holmes' garage (It will be there for Heat/AC repairs and new windshields) so I thought it would be best to just let them repair it. I will be spending a lot of time restoring the damaged interior. (It was vandalized prior to my purchase)
I emailed HWH last night and got a response from Joe right away this morning. He had talked to Stuarts and they expressed concern that there were problems with the air suspension that they weren't equipped to repair.. if I took it to a truck garage and got those issues resolved then they would be able to trouble-shoot the HWH system. I talked to Stuarts today for clarification but I'm still unclear as to what could be amiss apart from the leveler system.....the air bags hold air and the HWH system is supposed to fill or deflate them. I'm guessing if I take it to a truck garage they will tell me to take it to HWH because they dont understand the system either. I asked Stuarts if I brought it in and asked them to install a whole new system if they would do that.....(Just to gauge their response) He said they would recommend that I take it to HWH in Moscow IA...They could do it cheaper. So at this point I'm thinking Stuarts really don't want to work on it...Maybe because it won't fit on their lift.
I called Newell today not realizing that the service people work 4 - 10 hr days so were not there. Jason did return my call though and said that if I call during the Mon.-Thur. time they would try to help. I really appreciate their response but I'm still..........................

Frustrated.

[Richard and Rhonda]

I understand and empathize with the first overwhelming exposure to the air system. I had the same reaction, it took about two hours under the coach tracing air lines, and some diagrams from Michael to understand what is supposed to happen.

I would bet that all the techs that glance at it are having the same response. I think you are either going to have to figure it out for your self or PAY, and I mean PAY someone else to do it.

If I were faced with this situation, I would try to divide the problem into manageable sectors. I would divide it into the air bag and air bag plumbing after the manifold, the electrical wiring and solenoids on the manifold, and finally the HWH unit.

This is not going to be straighforward or quick. Let's start with the first area. At either the front or rear manifold, I would mark and disconnect the four hoses leading to the air bags. A handful of quick connect fittings and some plugs from Home Depot would allow you to essentially plug three lines and pressurize one at the time. That will do two things. One it will start your understanding of the plumbing, and it will allow you to exercise the air bags independent of the leveling system.

The next diagnostic is somewhat similar except using electricity. Using a 12V source, feel power into the disconnected wiring at the control panel and figure out which wires are powered at the solenoids. Making copius notes and diagrams of course.

Once you get that figured out you will know which set of wires at the console is supposed to activate which solenoid and you will be able to hook the air lines back to the manifolds. Now with the coach aired up you can force the solenoids manually.

You can now look at the third area which is to power up the HWH panel is see which leads are hot when you activate different buttons.

I have oversimplified this but you get the point.

Of course you could take it to Newell but what is the fun in that?

If you want to try this path, I'm sure Michael or I can draw you some basic diagrams of what the system is supposed to do. Mine is easy since I have toggle switches and bubble level instead of the computer controlled HWH panel.

[fulltiming]

Wow Dean, it sounds like you have a bucket load of potentially unrelated problems. I suspect that I have the same HWH control panel and computer as you.

In the mode that Richard has started (taking it one piece at a time), let's look at some of the issues you raised.

Hose under the dash disconnected and blowing air. This is likely the hose that goes to the vacuum generator used to control the HVAC dampers to change from heat to defrost.

The wiring disconnected/missing near the solenoid blocks is not good. If you need it, I can provide you with wiring locations on my front and rear suspension solenoid blocks if you desire by taking some photos of them and sending them to you.

Air leaking from one of the pressure regulators on the rear block. Make sure that it is a pressure regulator rather than a solenoid. Assuming it is a regulator, they do intentional leak out pressure from time to time BUT if it is leaking all the time that is not right and will likely have to be replaced unless it is leaking around the air line connection. If it is a solenoid, it likely needs replacement. After buying my coach, I had Newell replace all of the leveling solenoids as a precaution.

Air leaking from under the left front as well - this could be a right front or left front lowering solenoid stuck open and causing air to discharge (likely the left front since you mentioned that the left side was down).

No response to any input to the panel. The sensors in this panel send electric signals to the control box. On mine, that is located in the bay behind the right front tire. It could be a lack of power to the control box or a bad connection between the keypad and the control box.

Just keep things simple and address them one at a time. Each corner has two solenoids. One raises and one lowers the air bags that location. These are normally closed. Electric current from the control box opens either the raise or lower solenoid to let air into or out of the affected air bags. The control box does the work directed by the touch pad. If the control box does not have power or the electrical cable between the touch pad and the control box is not connected nothing will happen.

The first thing I would check would be the connectors on the rear of the touch pad to make sure they are making a good connection. If it still doesn't have lights coming on when the Level button is touched then I would check the fuses to the level system. On my coach, that is fuse 2 on the chassis fuse panel in front of the passengers feet (red wire), fuse 7 (yellow wire), fuse 14 (brown wire) and fuse 18 (orange w/1 black stripe).

I don't know what type of vandalization took place but if the dash was damaged, the connections to the touch pad could be off or damaged.

Installed a T with a schrader valve to air up the left rear so it wouldn't rub. The HWH system uses two sets of inputs and two sets of outputs. In leveling mode, the solenoids I have been discussing go to work based on a level sensor typically located in the bay near the center of the coach. In travel mode, ride height sensors on each side of the rear axle and in the center of the front axle determine if air should be added to or released from each set of airbags. There are a set of travel solenoids in the front and in the back that are next to the leveling solenoids. If those are not getting any signal from the control box, they will not raise/lower the appropriate corners of the coach. One way to test this is to apply power to the hot side of each solenoid with the engine running and see which side goes up/down. Incidentally, the inside of the control box has dozens of fuses.

I am certain that Newell can give you more details on the wiring to the various solenoids BUT until you get power to the touch pad, nothing is going to work correctly.

I like this HWH manual (http://www.hwh.com/ml22362.pdf).

[fulltiming]

As an aside, there is ABSOLUTELY no reason to need to have your Newell on a lift to work on the problems that you have been discussing. A mechanic can crawl under the front of the coach to get to the front solenoids and the rear solenoids are inside the passenger's side of the engine compartment. The only thing that is a little tough to get to would be the travel height adjustments if the suspension was not raised and that is probably not part of the problem.

[encantotom]

when i got my coach, my leveling system wasnt working right either. i got some help from michael and did as richard said. i basically spent the time tracing out all the wiring and air lines. made a schematic of my system and then fixed the problems one by one. i ended up having to replace three solenoids and all was well. each had a different problem. two got weak enough they would work and one leaked. michael is right, other than the ride height adjustment (which there is no way vandals would get to since it is underneath the coach) all else is totally accessable. the hardest thing is the solenoid manifold behind the drivers side headlight and that is no problem. mine is like richards and it is a manual system. i keep a spare solenoid now and can change them in a about ten minutes. i like to test things so i would take the control panel out, hook up 12v dc power to it and test with a meter all the switch positions. if because the control panel is hooked to another control system like michael says, then you might have to test it in place.

it is baffling why the contol lines are disconnected in the back unless there was problems previously and they tried to fix it and got stuck. as long as the wiring is ok, it should be straight forward to rewire. it really isnt as hard as it looks, just take it slow and easy and take lots of notes like richard and michael have said.

btw, i have the inside of my 90 newell gutted and am redoing the inside and have replaced alot of things in it. not because they needed it but because i wanted things different. let me know if i can help your efforts in any way as well.

[HoosierDaddy]

Thank you all.... :)

I think I'll take a stab at that leveler system myself. It will be a while before I can work on it.
My coach is kind of an odd-ball. It was built for the Steve Miller Band so it has a smaller front kitchen /living area and a small bedroom in the back. There are six bunks each with their own light,vent, and A.C. outlet in the middle....just right for six grand-kids! After I get the basics working (repair the interior damage,leveler,heat/a/c,engine/trans serviced,water system operational,generator serviced) I plan to make some minor floor plan changes. It's gonna be fun!!!!

Thanks again for the encouragement,

Dean

[JohnC]

Please, please, be sure you use cribbing or heavy duty jack stands before crawling under a coach supported by compressed air, especially critical if you are messing with air lines and control solenoids.

John C

[HoosierDaddy]

Here are pics of my rear and front air solenoids. I'm puzzled by the rear manifold. It appears that the top manifold with the smaller square s'noids is for the drive axle and the manifold with the larger round s'noids is for the tag. All of them will "click" when I put 12 V to them. Are those smaller square 'noids a normal set-up for Newell?

The other pic shows the front. The smaller assembly above the manifold has air leaking from that black rubber tube (2" long with two white wire ties) Can anybody tell me what that is and should it be leaking air? The two out-board 'noids (the ones on the right) get warm when I turn the control panel on.

I am getting lights on the panel and it seems to be trying to affect the leveling ("leveling" light on dash comes on and the panel beeps for a while) but I'm getting no response from the actual air bags.(Yes the air system is aired up !)

[fulltiming]

Dean, you are correct that the lower manifold with the adjustable pressure is the tag axle. My '92 drive axle solenoids look like your tag axle solenoids and I know that Newell still had solenoids that were virtually identical as of a couple of years ago (the new ones did not have the brass cover on them) so it may be that someone replaced the solenoids on your drive axle.

On the front manifold, the black tube is the air release. If a down solenoid is activated, it will, by design, vent air. If it is leaking air all the time, you have a down solenoid that is not seating properly. It could have some 'junk' in it but it is likely a defective solenoid, especially since the two outboard solenoids are getting warm. They should not be getting any current UNLESS the system is telling them to open and even then they shouldn't be open long enough to get very warm. I don't know if Newell used the HWH standard wiring colors or if someone else has modified them since, but the standard HWH wiring is yellow-RF raise, blue-RF lower, gray-travel, white-LF raise, red-LF lower.

In the rear the HWH standard wiring is gray-travel, brown-lower, orange-raise, purple-lower, green-raise. If you think it will help, I can sketch out which wire colors go to which solenoid on my coach, just let me know.

Can you manually raise or lower either the front, rear, right or left from the control panel? If so, you can tell which solenoids are likely defective. If not, there may be a problem with the HWH control circuit board. If you disconnect the positive lead to each solenoid and apply 12 volts, you should be able to get some raising or lowering from each solenoid.

Do you have air leveling and hydraulic jacks or air leveling only. I have air leveling only but I have driven a '92 that had both.

[fulltiming]

Incidentally, it takes a LOT of air to fill those air bags. I don't typically find that I notice any movement, in an upward direction with less than about 75 psi supply pressure and not much with less than about 90 psi. The HWH manual recommends that you leave the engine running (I find that high idle works best) when leveling the coach. I can drop the supply air pressure down 20 psi in less than 10 seconds trying to raise a side or front or rear manually with the engine off and the pressure up above 100 psi.

[encantotom]

i know this is all confusing, but here is what i would do. i think that michael and richard have said similar things but i will take my crack at it.

if it was me, i would totally take the hwh control system out of the picture at first. fix it after you have the air system working right. first see if the wiring is wired the way michael outlines above. once you think you know which solenoid does what valve, i would independently try each solenoid while in place on the manifold. i would take a separate ground wire from a good ground on the coach and a separate 12v source and try each solenoid front and back and make sure they at least click, as you put it. (this is where you can verify what valve is what as well) if the system is aired up, then the down solenoides will let air out. and the up solenoids will put air in the bags for that location. like michael said, you will see air pressure go down in the supply gauge up front. now for another trick, while you are working on it at the solenoids if you cant hear the air going in when you manually trigger the solenoid (up ones), you can take an air hose and get an air gauge and put an air hose male fitting on it and plug it in to the end of the air hose and have it right by you. then you can see from where ever you are the air pressure going down. for the solenoids in the rear, there is gauges there you can see, for the one under the left front bumper, you can use the gauge.

then you can draw out the air manifold as to which one does which wheel.

i would be willing to bet that you have at least one bad solenoid. i have replaced 3 on mine in the last year and keep a spare. i was cheaper than michale as they are 80 bucks apiece and i have not found them cheaper than newell anywhere yet. the old and new ones do look different but are the same. the old ones have a metal cover of the coil and the new ones are hwh and have no metal cover.

you might want to buy one or two to have to try as they are easy to put in. you have to get the solenoids working first or you will never get anywhere.

once you have all of them working manually. then you can start with the leveling system knowing they mechanically work ok now. you for sure have multiple problems and trying to do it all at the same time will drive you insane.

i will send you my phone numbers and you are welcome to call me anytime to talk through it. i have the manual toggle switch system so i do not have experience with the auto leveling, but it cant be very complicated. while you are working on the mechanical part, i would probably call hwh and see if they will for a nominal fee, test your control panel to see if it works properly. the 50 to 100 bucks it might cost would be nothing compared to the time you might put into it. i dont know if there is a control box located in one of the bays that the control panel activates (where the microcontroller is) or not. if so you could send that to be tested too. i suspect that if the malfunction was done because of the vandalism, that the control panel is probably the culprit, but who knows.

i would really be suprised if the ride height mechanisms need adjusting, and really think that just a combination of the solenoids, perhaps some bad grounds, funky connections at the solenoids and the control panel will get you fixed up. air leaks are a different problem, but if you can keep it aired up, that is good.

like michael said, other than getting under the front bumper on the drivers side to get at the solenoids for the front, you dont need to get under the coach and there it is just a few inches. but do be careful.

you can do this. you dont need to take it to iowa. that is my opinion.

[tuga]

It is very dangerous getting under a coach that is NOT BLOCKED OR SUPPORTED BY JACK STANDS.

BE SURE TO USE HEAVY DUTY JACK STANDS OR BLOCKS OF TIMBER TO SUPPORT A COACH ANYTIME YOU GET UNDER IT. A COACH CAN DROP AT ANY TIME! NEVER GET UNDER ONE WITHOUT PROPERLY SUPPORTING IT. I HAD A FRIEND WHO LOST HIS LIFE WHEN HE WAS PINNED UNDER HIS COACH.

PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE BE CAREFUL!

[HoosierDaddy]

Thanks, Tuga
Excellent point.
When I bought my '78 10 years ago I bought it from the widow of a wonderful man who lost his life after being crushed under a friends coach....He was trying to help.
I have made some progress on my leveler. More details when I have time to hunt-n-pek
Dean

[HoosierDaddy]

The air pressure regulator in the back (I believe it controls the pressure for the tag axle since it is attached to the bottom of the tag manifold) is leaking air out of the relief holes in the regulator whenever the ignition key is on. This does not seem right to me. It also will not regulate the pressure. Is it possible that there is air leaking back through the system into the outlet of the regulator? If so what would cause that? I'm thinking there is a solenoid not closing somewhere....

still trying to figure it out :-)

[fulltiming]

Yep, the bottom one is the tag air pressure regulator. It should only let air out when the pressure in the tag axle is greater than the setting on the regulator. The tag pressure is typically set for 20-25 psi. Pulling out on the knob and rotating it should adjust the pressure. If the air pressure is in the range of 20-25 psi and rotating the knob does not result in stopping the flow of air (or increasing the flow of air if the knob if moved toward a low pressure) then the pressure regulator valve is likely defective. If it is stuck, it will continuously bleed off air pressure.

[fulltiming]

The other potential is if the up valve for the tag axle is hung open and continuously putting air into the tag and the pressure regulator is trying to release the extra all the time.

[HoosierDaddy]

Thank you Michael! I had 2 new snoids here so I mounted them to the tag axle "up" position. That fixed the leaking regulator. When I disassembled the old snoids I found that the small "o" ring that the plunger seats on was out of place. I still cannot get the left side to rise when set on "travel" If I jump 12v direct to the travel snoid it will work. When the board is set to "travel" I get 12v at the travel snoid but no air to the bag. I'm suspecting a poor connection that will show OK on my test light but not enough current to trip the snoid.

[fulltiming]

Glad you got the tag issue resolved. Keep chipping away at it and you will have it working the way it should. You might put a ammeter on the solenoid to confirm your connection theory.

[encantotom]

before i replaced my bad solenoids, i took them apart and cleaned them up and put them back together. when on the bench, i could get them to work, but when in the manifold they would not. i only assume that they were getting weaker somehow. also, make sure all your grounds are well grounded....i redid the ground wiring on mine to be sure.

[HoosierDaddy]

OK, The left side just will not come up unless I jump 12v to the( Left rear)leveling solenoid. If I jump 12v to the travel solenoid after leveling it with the leveling s'noid it starts to lower. I'm suspecting whatever keeps it level in the travel position is not right. Is there a way to check that? (I swapped the travel s'noid and the dump s'noid which seems to work just to eliminate the solenoid as a factor ...no difference)
The "not in park" light comes on whenever I try to run the system with the pad. I'm guessing there's something amiss with the control box> I'm waiting for a call from an HWH tech to help trouble shoot it (I called the company yesterday... They were too busy to take my call so are supposed to call back)...That's the latest.

[fulltiming]

The height of the travel leveling system is adjustable. You may have a bent or slipped connector on the travel height rod on the left side. Trying to get to the level adjustment isn't easy without putting yourself in a bad place if the coach were to drop so if is essential to have cribbing or high capacity jack stands under the frame to keep it from accidentally dropping on you. Make all adjustments with the leveling system and ignition turned off. Extending the length of the rod on the left rear will cause the travel leveling system to think the coach is sitting to low and try to raise the coach to compensate. Of course it is also possible that the travel height valve on that side is defective but your comment about jumping the travel solenoid causes it to start to lower would have me looking at moving the adjustment upward on the left rear rod first.

[HoosierDaddy]

It appears that the travel leveling valves are adjusted properly. From what I can tell the arm coming from the valve should be near level at travel height. both upright links (from axle to arm) are near the limit of their length as well. The driver side (which sits low) appears to have a new leveling valve already installed. The only way I can keep the rear tires from rubbing is to put 12v to the up leveling solenoids. Note to Newell:Shouldn't there be enough clearance to prevent the tires from rubbing if all air is lost from the suspension?
I went to Ridewell's web-site in hope that I might learn how to troubleshoot the leveling valves but didn't learn much there. Now I'm back to sittin-n-thinkin and standin-n-starin !!!

[encantotom]

when my air is all dumped out of my air suspension, my rear tires ride the fender flares. so what you are seeing is not unusual.

[fulltiming]

Dean, if the level arm appears to be in the correct place, then it is possible that the level valve itself is defective and letting air out most of the time. The best way to check that, although again blocking the frame is key to safety, is to disconnect the linkage and see where in the movement of the valve air is being discharged and if there is a point at which air is being sent to the air bags by the level valve.

[HoosierDaddy]

I sent the brain box(bb) and the touch pad TP) to HWH. They replaced a circuit board and a resister in the bb and the on/off switch and the vinyl "skin" on the tp. Newell found a "used" manifold to replace the drive axle control manifold that used the square s'noids. I also purchased all new round s'noids for the drive axle. I bought new ridewell height control valves for the rear axle. My project for this week was to install everything but the HCValves....My neighbor is a truck mechanic so he did those for me...I'm not equipped to remove the tires which was necessary for the installation. I now can drive down the road at the proper height and the leveler seems to work great too!!!
Thanks to everyone who contributed to this thread! This project could have progressed faster but I am very slow to spend money replacing parts until I have fully determined that they are faulty. I have learned a lot as well which is part of the satisfaction of "DIY"
I continue to be concerned by the fact that the motorhome rests with the rear tires against the body before the bump-stops have touched. The tires protrude beyond the outside skin of the body The fiberglass Wheel opening mouldings cover the tires but the metal body (inside the flares) has rubbed a groove approximately 1/4 " in from the outside edge of the tread. It has 11.00-24.5 tires on it. I'm wondering if the tires are oversize or if there was a mistake at the Newell factory when they installed the bump stops???

[fulltiming]

If HWH replaced the circuit board, there must have been a problem with the controller itself. Did you try it with just the new circuit board and touch pad before replacing the manifold, ride height valves and solenoids? Any of those four components could have caused the problem. It should certainly fix the problem with all of those components repaired/replaced.

As far as the tires resting against the body, all the early '90's model Newells I have seen all sit on the fiberglass wheel openings when the suspension is dumped. I am surprised that your fiberglass wheel flairs clear the tires as they certainly didn't before 1993. The 11R24.5 tires are the original tire size. Have you set the ride height to 12" from the ground to the bottom of the square tube that runs just inside the lower panels just in front of the rear tires and just behind the front tires? If the ride height is set properly and the coach is allowed to pump up the suspension in Travel mode before it is moved, you should not be seeing the tires damaged by the body. My coach has over 146,000 miles on it and I have only the third set of rear tires it has ever had. I never saw the first set of tires but the second set had been on the coach for over 12 years and 60,000 miles when I bought it and they had no signs of the body scraping them. I IMMEDIATELY replaced those tires due to severe cracking on the sidewalls and in the threads. The replacements I had installed (the third set of tires) have been on the coach for 2-1/2 years and have about 18,000 miles, again with no sign of the body contacting the tires.

If the ride height were REALLY low OR if the coach were moved prior to the suspension being raised bad things can happen to the tires.

[encantotom]

i have no grooves in my tires, but man on man are they a tight fit in the wheelwell. my wife keeps saying she doesn't know how they dont rub. but they don't.
when the suspension is lowered, they come right down on the outside of the tires and almost rub, but more like rests...