Engine Batteries acting like they are weak

[encantotom]

Hi all,

this will be a long post. i am also willing to admit i am not as good as i thought i was on this. so you will find at the end i found out what was wrong, but think you might learn something from my blunders along the way.

the last few times i used the coach, it acted like the engine batteries were real weak. it would just click. when merge switch was on, it would turn over faster and may start or not. i would charge everything for days and same results.

so i started on my qwest to figure out why. i checked the voltage across each battery and they were all 13.6 volts. my engine batteries were interstate workhorse and were 4.5 years old. here in arizona, batteries just dont last that long, so i took them out and at SAM's club had them checked. i was sure they would have a bad cell or two, but they load checked good. since they were so old and soon to fail, i went ahead and bought two new 8D batteries at sams club. their house brand is Powerfast and they are made by interstate. they actually have a higher CCA than the interstate workaholic. 125 bucks each, good deal. i put them in and as i climbed into the cockpit with confidence, no go. same thing.

i had never changed the merge solenoid, so i was getting some funky readings on it so i changed it. walla, no difference. i would get voltage across both terminals.

my merge switch was acting funny and i spent hours tracing out the merge wiring. it would only merge off of the house batteries and not the engine batteries.

i cleaned all the battery cables i could get at and checked for corrision and they appeared just fine.

so, i put a clampon amp meter on the starter positive cable right at the starter. it would peak at 1300 amps and float at 600 and under. so when i told the starter place that rebuilt my alternator last year that he said that was probably too much.

so i took the starter out. easier said than done. use the air to lift the coach as much as i can, use 2 20 ton bottle jacks to hold it up and off i go.

first take the screen off that covers the entire bottom of the engine. then disconnect all the batteries and use the dissconnect switch. take the cables off the starter. then i attached a strap around the starter, had my 17 year old daughter hold it up top as much as she could and i took the bolts off. they were really in there an i had to use a rubber mallet on an box end wrench (no socket can get in there) to get them loose. then an makeshift ratchet box end wrench with a piece of pipe on it to get the top bolt off.

btw, the starter weighs about 80 pounds or a little more. it is huge. she held the strap and i jockeyed the starter around some oil lines. she then slowly lowered the starte as i held it overhead while on a creeper. it weighs almost as much as she does...

i set it on my chest to catch my breath and that didnt work very well. it really took my breath away as it sat there. i quickly got it to the ground.

i quickly put it in my car and drove looking like a dirty bigfoot to the shop that was 25 miles away in far west phoenix. i got to this great little shop and they stayed open for me as i got there after 5pm. they bench checked it with no load and it was ok. he said that it likely was worn and would fail under load. so he made me a great deal on a rebuilt starter with a one year warranty and figured i would just get it and put it in. if nothing else another thing not to fail. it was the original starter. 250 bucks for the starter.

while i was up there that far i popped over to suprise arizona and saw my grandkids...

the next day i installed the starter. put it on a floor jack, tied two straps to it and had a burley buddy up top and me down below. i am doubly burley at 6'2" and 300 pounds...i got it installed in about 15 minutes..but it is really heavy and you could easily crush yourself without help.

now i am really confident...i go to start it and nothing. exactly the same. i got it started on merge, but not on engine batteries only.

so, i tear the back stainless panel that covers the disconnect switches etc out and trace all battery cables around and take them off and clean them. i started ohming each one out to make sure it would get down to as close to zero ohms as possible. they were ok. but, i had an open between the ground cable for the engine batteries where it mounts to the frame and the negative of the last engine battery.

now here is where i feel dumb. the big brass looking round 600amp fuse that is bolted on the battery on the ground of the first battery was blown. no indications other than it was totally open. the reason i didnt catch this is i checked the voltage on each battery a number of times by just checking across the positive and negative of each battery and of course they said good. i never went from positive to coach ground....then i would have know there was no ground.

here is another strategic mistake i made. i would turn the engine batteries off and stil measure voltage at places it should have been the engine batts. what i had neglected to do was turn the coach charger off that was plugged into the house. it must send juice all over the place. so i was getting bogus readings.

so, for the last few months i was only starting it from the house batteries and i suspect they really are getting weak as they are standard workaholic batteries that have been charged and discharged a bunch of times. i took the fuse off of that one and put it on the starting batteries and it started right up easily....duh......

so i ordered off of ebay a couple of those fuses. they sell for 90 bucks at grainger and i got 2 of them for that price on ebay.

so, i have batteries that are new that i would have done soon anyway, a new starter that shouldnt fail for the life of me and the coach, and now the merge works the way it should....

so, i dont know what caused the fuse to blow. i am assumming that perhaps when i changed the alternator i must have done something...or when the regulator on the old alternator shorted out.

so, lesson learned until the next time i blunder around. maybe you guys can learn from it as well.

at least my labor is cheap......and i understand alot more about how things are wired...

later

tom

[HoosierDaddy]

Aeiii Tom.....Been there so many times. My family wonders why I just "Stand and Stare" at a project/problem.
Very instructive thank you for the great information.
Dean

[chockwald]

Wow, Tom.....I know exactly how you feel. I've lost track of how many times an electrical problem on one of my vehicles has been a "ground" issue, and yet I seem to always assume the worst when trying to track down an electrical problem. Again, as others have said so often, THANK YOU for sharing your experiences so thoroughly. I have learned a lot from reading your posts!

[tuga]

I tried to start my coach today, and it wouldn't start. I tested the batteries with a volt meter: one tested at 13.8 volts and the other one at 2.4 volts. I tested them with the coach plugged in and with all of the cables connected. I put the volt meter test leads on each battery post.

It looks to me like I have a dead battery. The starting batteries are 4 years old.

Am I testing correctly?

[encantotom]

when the batteries are hooked up in parallel, you shouldnt be getting the batteries to be reading differently because essentially they are acting like one big 12v battery.

the other thing is unless you are sure the big fuse that is on the ground side is good, you should measure to frame ground.

if you have your charger on and the merge switch on, you will be getting voltage from the inverter/charger as well, so make sure that is not on.

i always isolate the battery to be sure nothing else is effecting it.

what usually happens is that the battery will still be close to 13v but will draw down very quickly under load and that is why it shows up only under a load.

if indeed you are getting a different voltage measuring directly across each battery, it makes me wonder if the cable connecting the two batteries is good or the connections not good.

i would take them off and clean them, and check the battery voltage with the cables off.

my two cents worth.

tom

[tuga]

Thanks Tom, I am going to remove the cables tomorrow and check the voltage again.
I will also turn off the battery merge switch off and disconnect the shore power.

If the voltage of the battery is less than 12.0 volts I will assume that it is dead.

I will also check the good battery on the left with the cables off. They should both be about the same if they are both good.

[HoosierDaddy]

I would recommend a load test. The tester will put a load on the battery as it tests it. You can check the alternator with it as well. Anybody who sells batterys should have one..Maybe you can borrow it?? I finally bought one(snap-on) on ebay for 30-40 bucks. Maybe if you had somebody try to "turn it over" while you hold the voltage tester on it?

[encantotom]

dean is correct, and that is what i meant by "under load". when the batteries are working properly you should only see a 1-2v drop when you are starting the engine. the same would be with using a load tester.

the question i have is will the cheaper load testers put enough load on an 8D battery?

tom

[HoosierDaddy]

Heres one like mine. It seems to work well if I isolate each batt. Not sure if the brand new 39.00 off brands will do the job or not.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Snap-On-Tools-Alternator-Battery-Starter-Tester_W0QQitemZ360221163695QQcmdZViewItemQQptZMot ors_Automotive_Tools?hash=item53dedac0af

[tuga]

A friend suggested testing the voltage on my equalizer. He thinks that the battery may not be bad; it just needs to be equalized.

What do you guys think?

[encantotom]

are they agm or flooded cell batteries? i personally wouldnt waste the money on agm starting batteries.

it doesnt hurt to equalize them. your charger will do it.

load testing is going to be the real key, whether by starting the coach or having the batteries tested. i replaced all of my batteries. they are really heavy......

tom

[chockwald]

"they are really heavy......"

Yes, they are!!!

[tuga]

are they agm or flooded cell batteries? i personally wouldnt waste the money on agm starting batteries.

it doesnt hurt to equalize them. your charger will do it.

load testing is going to be the real key, whether by starting the coach or having the batteries tested. i replaced all of my batteries. they are really heavy......

tom

Tom,

They are 8D wet cell batteries, not AGM gels. I tested each cell after charging them for about 2 hours. Each battery had one bad cell. Since they are 4 years old, I am just going to replace them.

I am a little afraid to EQUALIZE them because in the LINK 2000 manual it says to turn off voltage sensative DC loads before equalizing a battery. I'm not sure what that means so I will just pass on equalizing.

What size (cranking amps) battery should I buy? Seems like I remember 990 or 1100 crancking amps is what is needed.

One more question:
Is parallel when there is a jumper from neg (#1 batt) to neg (#2 batt) and a jumper from pos (#1 batt) to pos (#2 batt)? I get those confused with series which I think is neg to pos to neg to pos (like a flash light).

[Richard and Rhonda]

Tuga, you are correct on parallel. Parallel gives you the same voltage, just more amperage. If you wire them in series, the voltage adds.

[encantotom]

tuga, richard is right.

think of it like a flashlite. when you have an old flashlight with the C or D batteries in it, you put them front to back until you had filled up the chamber, remember? in doing postive to negative, you are adding together the voltages to get a brighter light. more batteries, the brighter light.

however, your starter in your coach is 12v. it needs 12v. however, since it is a HUGE starter, it needs a lot of CURRENT to turn over under the load of the engine. to do that, you need to have lots of cranking amps. amps are additive, so when you hook up in parallel, (positive to positive and negative to negative) you keep the voltage the same and sum the cranking amps up. even my f350 diesel truck has two batteries and when one of them is the least bit low, it wont start. diesels like to be spinning fast to start. remember, our diesels are basically a controlled explosion activiated by fuel and pressure. since they are high pressure in the cylinders, it takes lots of cranking amps to turn it over fast enough to get it started. for me, the fun example that is very illustrative are diesel powered pile drivers. the ones they use to pound bridge supports that are 3 feet in diameter down 100 feet. they set a huge cylinder on top of the support to be pounded in, support it on the outside gently, lift the piston (hammer) up and let it go as they squirt diesel fuel into the cylinder. it explodes, shoots the piston back up and it all starts over again. it is amazing to watch and they control the hammering pressure by how much fuel they squirt in. a simple one cylinder diesel engine that doubles as a hammer.

as to which 8D battery to buy, i have a simple approach....which is cheapest? that may not be the official newell approach, but it is mine.

there are not dozens of makers of 8D batteries and most are just remarked from a few manufacturers.

i bought mine at SAM's club and paid 135 bucks apiece. they are made by interstate and actually have higher cranking amps than the interstate workhorse batteries i replace. i think mine are 1400 CCa. SAM's club has their own interstate label.

can ya tell i took a long nap and now know i will be up all nite so i am writting to much?

as wally says, thats my two cents worth and i am sticking to it.

tom

[Bill & Sonja]

Tom, you're explanations are terrific and much appreciated!
Bill

[encantotom]

thanks. maybe all those years in engineering school helped a little.

i did leave out another comment. there are other posts talking about batteries. i do buy the cheapest for the starting batteries, but i bought AGM batteries for the coach side. i did get mine for 400 each which was as good of a price that i could find. i bought interstate AGM ones.

i do love tinkering on these things. a close friend got me a hat for christmas that says....."tinkering and traveling kind of guy"

i have never really participated in a web site like this one before in any substantial way, but i have spent alot of time here learning from the masters.

i have said before, i love my newell, but would have been very happy with a bluebird too....what i didnt figure was all the great i would make that along the way....

[tuga]

Thanks Tom for a great explanation!

I called a local battery dealer and got a price of $171 for an 8D. I am going to go to Sam's tonight and price them.

Quick question: I have read that wet cell batteries should be used in a hot area like in a Newell next to a series 60 DD. Using gel cells are not recommended. Why?

Also, how should I dispose of the old 8Ds? Will Sam's take the old batteries? Should I drive to Matt Russo's house and put them in the front yard?

[encantotom]

first things first....

as to how to dispose of the old batteries.

#1 choice is to put them in matts front yard

however, the battery place will charge you more for the new battery without a core. but it would be worth it.

#2 choice would be to put them in the bay and use them as wheel chocks.

heat is not good for any battery. it decreases the life. however, i dont think your engine compartment is an issue.

i am not aware of any restrictions on agm or gel batteries and where you place them. of course with a agm battery you can even mount them upside down if you want.

later

tom

[chockwald]

I feel like I gained a few IQ points reading Tom's explanation about series and parallel. Seriously, Tom, thank you very much for the verbal illustration. In a couple of years hanging around you guys I'll know enough about DC and AC to be dangerous....

[express1]

Hey, I know I am a slow reader but, I missed the comment about leaving old 8ds in my front yard.
But now that I do have a battery issue, I've started reading all the posts about Tom's starter (weight lifting) workout.

Great info but I can't even find the fuse spoke of? Do all coaches have them?

My coach has sealed starting batteries now, and I'm not sure how old they are. But they have gone down twice after sitting for 60 days each time.

I will replace. (cheapest?) I have never taken that approach!
I've always paid for what I got.
or
Got what I paid for!
Either way I always get it wrong.....:D

[prairieschooner]

Matt,
If you are coming to so cal still I can help you with you batteries...you will still have to lift them...I will just help you decide and watch you pay for them.
You Batteries may not be bad, something as simple as the stereo could draw the batteries down, it uses power to keep the memory of preset channels.

[Richard and Rhonda]

Matt,

Are you throwing the battery disconnect switch when you leave the coach. For the chassis batteries, it's in the stainless panel in the right rear bay with the batteries.

For the house batteries, it is located in the bay with the house batteries.

Neither of mine will stay charged for more than about three weeks IF I leave them connected because of parasitic loads. (like Steve said, clocks, and radios, and such)

I do not store my coach plugged in.

Some will probably chime in about using an echo charger if you do store plugged in.

[tuga]

Matt,

As we discussed yesterday, engine batteries usually last about 2 to 4 years. My guess is that yours are more than 2 years old. I would have a battery shop load test the batteries after you have recharged them. They probably need to be replaced. Give Newell a call and find out the cold cranking amps needed; I think it is about 1000 to 1100 CCA.

I installed a Power Pulse device on mine. It sends an electrical charge thru the batteries every few seconds and prevents sulfation from occuring. When sulfation occurs a build up of sulphur(I'm guessing here) attaches to the battery plates and this causes the battery to become less efficient. My batteries have lasted 4 years almost to the month that I first installed them. So I feel that I got double the normal life. Not bad for an $80 investment.

Google Power Pulse battery savers - it's a good investment. Newell Coach sells them also.

[fulltiming]

If you are an electrical do-it-yourselfer, you might take a look at http://www.reuk.co.uk/Battery-Desulfation.htm this site for instructions on building your own battery desulfation device. Note the admonition that you should trickle charge the battery while using the device since the battery voltage will drop as the lead sulfate crystals are removed from the battery plates.

[express1]

again, thanks for all the help and info. Richard, I don't disconnect anything. Thats most likely my problem.
I will pull the batteries and have them tested.

Thanks for all info.

But I am curious about the fuse Tom spoke of?

[wallyarntzen]

Tuga, I have been using the power pulses for about 3 years before Newell started using them. Hang tight on your batteries because you should get 8 years or better with the power pulses.
I was at a Newell ralley in florida and another looked at my power pulesers and tipped off Newell who then started putting them in their coaches. I hope he got a bonus for the tip off to Newell.

Link to Powerpulse: <a href="http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B004I6QREK/ref=as_li_qf_sp_asin_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=9325&creativeASIN=B004I6QREK&linkCode=as2&tag=affiliatechie-20">12 Volt Power Pulse Battery Charger</a><img src="http://www.assoc-amazon.com/e/ir?t=affiliatechie-20&l=as2&o=1&a=B004I6QREK" width="1" height="1" border="0" alt="" style="border:none !important; margin:0px !important;" />

[Richard and Rhonda]

Matt,

The fuse that Tom was referring to is actually on the ground cable. It's either a 50 or 70 amp job. It's purpose is to prevent you from having a dead short in the electrical system, or in Tom's case a locked starter because the engine is locked. I actually have two of them. One is in the main ground cable, and one is in the ground cable that is dedicated to the starter.

Your coach is very similar to mine. I can see the fuse from the batterys. It is black, about 1.5 inches in diameter and is an in line fuse with the main ground cable.

It is not a fuse in a fuse box anywhere. It is an in line fuse, in the ground cable.

Was that enough to confuse you?

[express1]

Got It. I replaced batteries and all is well again:thumbsup:

bought from batteries plus. Some reason previous owner used deep cycle freedom batteries.....

the guy at batteries plus sold me on cheaper wet with 1500-1700 cranking power.....:o

Thanks again to all......
Snowing in Reno now....

[tuga]

Matt,

I did the exact same thing; Batteries Plus had the best price on wet cell 8Ds with high cold cranking amps. Now you're set - no more worrying about the engine not cranking when you turn the key.

http://www.survivalunlimited.com/batteries/powerpulse12.htm

The Power Pulse is the best $68 you ever spend; it doubled the life of my starting batteries. Check it out!

[tuga]

Tuga, I have been using the power pulses for about 3 years before Newell started using them. Hang tight on your batteries because you should get 8 years or better with the power pulses.
I was at a Newell ralley in florida and another looked at my power pulesers and tipped off Newell who then started putting them in their coaches. I hope he got a bonus for the tip off to Newell.

So you are the guy that Tommy Key told me about. He said that someone told them about Power Pulses at a rally. Small world isn't it - who would have thunk it!

Wally, you are the man!

[Summersgal]

I am having an issue with starting the coach with the starter batteries. I have installed new batteries (two 8D2, 1700 CCA each). the starter will engage and the engine will turn over a couple of times and that's it. I have removed and cleaned all the cables, and have checked the ground all the way from the negative post (fuse on negative post is good) to the block and to the starter with one to two ohms max. Batteries are charged and alternator is working fine. It will start when I use the merge switch. My question is how many amps will the starter draw on average, I know if the engine is really cold it could draw more current. Right now in 50 degree weather, the starter is pulling about 551 amps, not sure if this is high and I could have a starter going bad.

Jeff

[encantotom]

hi jeff,

i went through a similar experience with my 1990 8v92. i replaced the batteries and made sure the alternator was working right and when i convinced myself the starter was drawing too much current (more than 551amps you are referring to) and still had the problem. it ended up being the fuse between the ground and the batteries. a big fuse.btw, 551amps i believe at peak under load i think is normal. but someone please verify that.

the reason merge works is that it us just using the house batteries.

not sure that helps, but thats what it was for me. btw, the starter on my 8v92 weighed 80pounds. after i put a new one in i found out that there is a geared starter for the same price that weighs less than half.

i know you have a series 60, but i think all of this still is similar.

tom

[Summersgal]

Thanks Tom,

Yes I read your post and could of wrote it word for word except the part with your daughter helping you. We drove to Mexico beach and back and everything was fine, 3 days later I went out to move the coach into our storage building and it would not even turn over. I flipped the merge switch and the starter solenoid would just click. I checked the starter batteries and they showed about 3/4 charged, house batteries were fine. I put the big charger on them and still nothing, it acted like the starter was hung up. I proceeded to remove the starter when the rain started. I had to get a 3 foot cheater just to get the bolts broke loose, by now the rain is running down the side of the coach pretty good and pouring on my backside and legs while I am hunkered over kneeling on top of the starter batteries. I finally get the beast off and take it into the shop, this is when I noticed the nut on the positive post of the starter solenoid which actually goes into the side of the starter was loose. I had not touched this nut during removal. I tightened the nut, hooked the starter to an old tweleve volt battery and it turned fine. At this point I wanted to cry thinking WHY did I not check this when it was still attached tot the engine, I was soaking wet and thought I had just removed this thing for nothing. I went back out in the rain and installed the starter back. I tried to start the coach, it would turn over, but not very fast. I hooked up the big charger (thinking I had drained the batteries while attempting to start the coach earlier. After five minutes of charging, the coach started and I moved it into the building out of the rain. Since that time, I have replaced both starter batteries, cleaned all the cables, verified a good ground, verified the batteries are getting charged from both the on board charger and the alternator. The coach will start just fine when merged with the house batteries, the starter batteries alone will not start the coach. Sunday morning I read your post about the fuse and again thought (crap), I went out and checked it too make sure that was not the problem, it checked good. We started the coach (with the merge on) drove 20 miles, engine up to 180 degrees. I shut off the coach and it restarted fine with just the starter batteries. It started twice and that was it, the starter batteries did not have enough power to start it a third time. Flipped the merge switch and it started fine. This is what had led me to believe the starter was pulling two much current and knocking the starter batteries to their knees.

Jeff

[prairieschooner]

Jeff,
Use a Volt Meter so that you can see what the voltage is at the starter, put the leads at the same terminals that the starter gets it power from (+) at the positive cable connection (like you stated with a loose nut on a terminal) and (-) at the negative cable connection. Now go back through the tests using the engine batteries and the merge function.
So many times it is simply a loose connection and mostly a loose ground (-). Not sure about your engine but my 6V92 requires 2000 cranking amps and that is why there are two 8D batteries.
Good luck, I know that it can be frustrating, just write down the findings while performing the tests with the volt meter and test the voltage at numerous points of the positive (+) and negative (-) cables one cable at a time.

[encantotom]

hi jeff, i sent you an email with my phone number. give me a call if you want to chat about it.

tom

[truk4u]

Jeff,

I would put a full charge on the batteries and then load test, just to rule that out.

[Summersgal]

:blushing: :blushing: :thumbsup:

I want to thank everyone for the replies and the offers to help. I spoke with Tom and Richard tonight and after going over everything that I had done, they asked me to take a few more checks with my volt meter and record my readings. As I was trying to get a good spot on the negative post of the starter, I noticed the negative cable coming from the starter batteries laying right underneath the negative post of the stater. I guess in my hast to re-install the starter the other day, I hooked the braided cable from the engine block, but failed to hook up the negative cable coming from the batteries. I hooked this cable up and the starter spun like a top and the engine started right up. I am assuming my original problem was the loose nut on the positive terminal on the starter solenoid to the starter. When I re-installed the starter and inadvertently left the negative cable off the negative post on the back of the starter, is what caused the rest of my problems. Though I am embarrassed by making such a silly mistake, I am happy the starter is fine and everything seems to working well now.

Thanks again

Jeff

[chockwald]

It is often something that simple Jeff. Congratulations on solving the problem!

[folivier]

Hey Jeff you're now part of the coveted inner circle!

[encantotom]

when jeff called me i conferenced in the wizard richard. it was fun for the 3 of us to talk. i am glad it worked out well. i have made far goofier boo boos. it doesnt matter what it was as long as it got fixed.

i am looking forward to meeting jeff and pam when they come out to az to visit.

i need all of you to come visit and just fix one thing on my rig before you leave so i can get it all fixed up!

later

tom

[prairieschooner]

Jeff,
Use a Volt Meter so that you can see what the voltage is at the starter, put the leads at the same terminals that the starter gets it power from (+) at the positive cable connection (like you stated with a loose nut on a terminal) and (-) at the negative cable connection. Now go back through the tests using the engine batteries and the merge function.
So many times it is simply a loose connection and mostly a loose ground (-). Not sure about your engine but my 6V92 requires 2000 cranking amps and that is why there are two 8D batteries.
Good luck, I know that it can be frustrating, just write down the findings while performing the tests with the volt meter and test the voltage at numerous points of the positive (+) and negative (-) cables one cable at a time.


I have been trouble shooting problems a long time and that is why I suggested starting from the beginning. I always start at one end then the other end, then cut the circuit in half and then half again. I will record the readings on a complicated circuit and have found this approach to work well for me.

Glad it worked out. Off to the Colorado River tomorrow!!

[chockwald]

i need all of you to come visit and just fix one thing on my rig before you leave so i can get it all fixed up!

later

tom

We'll be stopping by on our way to Senator Wash, Tom, and will do our part! Should be there by the 5th, or 6th of Feb. at the latest.

Clarke and Elaine