1990 Newell w/ 8v92ta . Cooling issues

[marcg007]

Hi all, im happy to have found u all!!! An i have a few questions about a detroit 8v92ta. Production date sometime mid/late 1989, Silver. Shes in a 1990 newell 40ft coach #223. auto 4sp Allison, an i think....think its an h-700 series trans. 145k miles.

Im hoping to find detroit or newell people who know this motor an can point me in the right direction as she is doing the infamous overheating. Its unfortunate as the detroit fellow i was to have check her prior to purchase had a stroke 4 days prior to my fly in. He is doing well ive been told. i could not find a detriot tech in such a short time. One who could come on-site or nearby an i settled for one nearby to help me change fluids and fluid filters. 40 weight cx-ii in the motor, trans filters an fluid, an gen filters an fluid etc. He would not have been my choice as he was a general diesel tech an knew some on detroits but i did what i could. We also did the belts, alternator rebuild. battery check , brake an air line inspection. Did not do a coolant flush yet, but replaced the radiator cap. coolant level was good as the eyesight showed level throughout multiple checks, coolant was a decent green an not brown from rust etc in anyway.

145,000 miles on motor. From a cold start( 65f out at the time)she fired right up, no pulsing, no excessive smoke at all. no excessive oil leaks. after warm up oil press ran 45psi at around 1700 rpm, an 12 or so psi at a 550rpm or so idle. Level road from a stop when pushed the boost bounced off 22psi as shifted through the gears, cresting 1900 rpm. like i said when pushed checking her out...

Ive asked a few about the motor an the ones i did ask know some but not direct details on detroits. so here goes.


She ran different throughout 2 trips, will go into that later. I drove it from central fl to keywest an back early march. Then just up the east coast from florida to massachusetts an experienced some cooling issues along the way. she ran the key west trip good, but about 200f. but i learned the 2nd trip up the coast that she couldve ran better . the tech stated the air filter looked good so i did not replace right away.

so onto the situations; the 2nd trip back north. Mainly when running over 7psi of boost the cooling seemed it could not keep up. temps would start to rise over 210-220. one time it spiked to 240 going thru the blue ridge mtns on the 2nd trip. I Also pulled over a bunch of times an let her cool. At an idle or fast idle she would cool to 180(which is center of vdo gauge) . an later on even at a toll both temps would drop back down. If i stayed 7-8 psi max she rode 200ish, boost 8-10 an she would warm to 210, boost 12,15 an she would def go way over. drop back to 7-8psi boost during that climb or where ever an she would hold or start to lower temp for the most part.

after the the bluridge mtns an major hills moving I-81n night started to fall, temps were about 65 out then, it then dropped 50, then 45, then about 40f after 2am. About 12am Once the temps where 50ish she started to run better. an I remember reading how important the air filter is to this motor. as it uses the intake air not only for combustion but to force the hot gasses out the exhaust. Pulled off at a stop, removed the air filter in a few minutes. she ran so much better. less pedal more boost an response, temps stayed 180 the rest of the night even maintaing 12-15psi throughout the right times. i noticed an immediate response an huge improvement in power an temps.

4am i stopped pa ny border, slept 4 hours an was back on road for the last 450miles. she ran like it was a new motor for me, after an hour or so, an outside temps were rising, i noticed she started to run warmer an warmer. I reduced my max boost as i went along, by noon she wanted to keep getting warmer again if i didnt run past 6psi by 1pm. temps outside 65 or so by then.



Hope i didnt loose anyone, i am a technician by nature an i notice details.



THE FIX: so i am asking for recommendations. i hope i didnt ruin any seals or damage further. she never ran past 240 which i know is bad, an heard anything over 210f even bad in the first place.

but it was the situation , baby her within reason an risk some damage an do a rebuild near home. i didnt have log books prior, an after filter replacements an fluids i questioned prior maintenance. i already came to terms that if problems arrise i may need to do a rebuild anyway.

1) pay the money towards a tow, then do repairs when i get back. Or 2) run her an pay attention as best i could an risk damage an do rebuild if it gets bad.

I am also aware that running no filter is problem waiting to happen. i also am aware that later when outside temps got higher my cold air intake was reduced as turbo intake is middle of engine cab pulling in warmer air. there was only the filter connector attached to the turbo.

Would a coolant flush an clean by detroit be recommended. or is there a known good flush i could do? . i also read that detroit have test strips to tell contaminates , oils, nitrates, ph & ppms etc. any experience with that. if so i will do that when i call an find out monday. ( i do own a PH an PPM meter)

Do water pumps loose performance or either work or fail??

Likelyhood of coolant temp sensor failure? or just try remove an clean an or ohm out before replacement. or is my temp reading off an oil temperature sensor?

Any other real important points of interest? turbo after coolers?? I am getting what i think is good air movement across radiator. The radiator is clean an not oily on the outside. Could it be internal radiator buildup preventing proper heat transfer from coolant to radiator fin?. engine coolant port build up likelyhood?

again i am medical equipment technician. i am familair with small motors, i have rebuilt carbs, 2 stroke 4 strokes small motors. rebuilt water pumps, worked on genesets, hydraulic pump repairs. pressing bearings pulling bearings. 120v an 12v systems. r22 r 134 hvac systems. I use a multimeter an ohm out sensors an solenoids etc on weekly a basis. reading error code troubleshooting. thou my diesel knowledge is on yanmar motor gensets. i know some vw tdi's info, basic biodiesel knowledge an the important of atomization of fuel vs temps etc. i have some volvo diesel marine troubleshooting. Just no detriot yet, keyword yet!!!

thanks in advance an i hope my erratic post didnt deter anyone. thanks in advance an thank you. Any Newell techs worth while in New England, or NY.

marc

[marcg007]

So i had someone take a photo of the temp gauge when running down the road. has anyone had these vdo gauge go bad, or the sending unit? is this an oil sensor or coolant sensor. either those likely to go bad??

so in this photo is the 200 deg on the marker next to the "2" on 200 or the last "0". it often ran near where the dial is. which i believe is 210 or so. am i wrong??

occasionally the oil pressure an temp gauges would both jump together. i noticed also when i was climbing some hills i put the hazards on an most of the gauges where jumping with the on/off of the hazzard. Bad ground????


thanks in advance

[marcg007]

i just posted this photo an it disappeared.


this is a photo of the temp gauge , had someone take a phot owhile i was running down the road.

the question is , is this an oil temp or coolant temp? in this photo is it approx 210deg f.? or is 200deg marker to left of "0", or does 200 deg start where the " 2 " is?

likelyhood of a bad sensor?

also occasionally the oil pressure an temp gauge would pulse st the same interval. when climbing a few hills i would throw the hazards on. alot fo the gauges would pulse with the hazzard on/off, bad ground ?? or connection???


thanks in advance

[MrE]

Marc,

Couple of suggestions.
Number 1, analog gauges are accurate to +/- 20%, so your 240 degree reading might have only been 192 degrees. If you don't have one, get a non-contact infrared thermometer with laser targeting. That will be much more accurate than your analog gauge.
Number 2, get the Silverleaf VM Spc monitoring program. It will run you $300 for the cable, but the program that runs on Windows 7 is a free download. Here's a post that has the information you will need : http://www.luxurycoachlifestyle.com/...ead.php?t=4665

I lost my 8V92 to overheating, and it's not inexpensive to fix. I decided to take the engine swap alternative, and still negotiating getting a Cummins 11L ISM and 6spd ZF transmission installed in my coach. Was able to pick up the donor coach, but currently having a problem finding a reputable shop in my area to do the work for a fair price.

good luck,
jon

[marcg007]

Originally Posted by MrE

Marc,

Couple of suggestions.
Number 1, analog gauges are accurate to +/- 20%, so your 240 degree reading might have only been 192 degrees. If you don't have one, get a non-contact infrared thermometer with laser targeting. That will be much more accurate than your analog gauge.
Number 2, get the Silverleaf VM Spc monitoring program. It will run you $300 for the cable, but the program that runs on Windows 7 is a free download. Here's a post that has the information you will need : http://www.luxurycoachlifestyle.com/...ead.php?t=4665

I lost my 8V92 to overheating, and it's not inexpensive to fix. I decided to take the engine swap alternative, and still negotiating getting a Cummins 11L ISM and 6spd ZF transmission installed in my coach. Was able to pick up the donor coach, but currently having a problem finding a reputable shop in my area to do the work for a fair price.

good luck,
jon

wow, that is right up my alley. i will be contacting them tomorrow.

thank you

[MrE]

The one really important gauge that Silverleaf does not have is the pyrometer. If you don't already have one it's worth investing in. The sensor should also be installed before the turbo. A Google search can explain why a lot better than I can.

These are some of the functions that Silverleaf does monitor:
Speed
RPM
Oil Pressure
Fuel Temperature
Barometric Pressure
Throttle Position (%)
Output Torque
Torque
Horsepower
Coolant Level
Engine Temperature
Turbo Boost
Instantaneous MPG
Fuel Rate
Load (%)
Cruise Control Set Speed
Battery Voltage
Fuel Gallons Used (since last software reset)
Time Engine Has Run (since last software reset)
Engine Hours
Miles (since hardware reset)
Gallons Used (since hardware reset)

[marcg007]

Originally Posted by MrE

The one really important gauge that Silverleaf does not have is the pyrometer. If you don't already have one it's worth investing in. The sensor should also be installed before the turbo. A Google search can explain why a lot better than I can.

These are some of the functions that Silverleaf does monitor:
Speed
RPM
Oil Pressure
Fuel Temperature
Barometric Pressure
Throttle Position (%)
Output Torque
Torque
Horsepower
Coolant Level
Engine Temperature
Turbo Boost
Instantaneous MPG
Fuel Rate
Load (%)
Cruise Control Set Speed
Battery Voltage
Fuel Gallons Used (since last software reset)
Time Engine Has Run (since last software reset)
Engine Hours
Miles (since hardware reset)
Gallons Used (since hardware reset)

Mr e that is quite the list. I def am considering the egt sensor install, i just need to know sooner then later what my situation is before is spend the money on the vms , egt parts.b Thou bbuy the vms may tell me nothing is wrong or not as extreme as the gauge has told me. Want to get tire pressure info as well worked in to the vms. I have already sourced the e-prom upgrade for the motor.

gave a call over to silver leaf this morning. i got 4 weeks to get her right.

Anychance you know of any newell guys or Detroit techs in Mass or RI? id consider traveling further if needed. NH , maine vermont, ct??

Do you know if the vms can display engine codes?

thanks for your help an hope your week is well!!!!

marc

[MrE]

Yes, according to the website it displays complete diagnostics.

[marcg007]

Mr e thank you... i spoke to them monday morning an had the vms pc shipped out. I also ordered the update ic chip for the ddec ii computer. while the vms softeare allows egt gas monitoring, the ddec ii does not. no spot on the ddec computer to plug in a probe.

any suggestions on egt probe kits? since im going to use the pc might be nice to get it all on the screen instead of installing a gauge.

thanks for the replies.

[MrE]

Originally Posted by marcg007

while the vms softeare allows egt gas monitoring, the ddec ii does not. no spot on the ddec computer to plug in a probe.

any suggestions on egt probe kits? since im going to use the pc might be nice to get it all on the screen instead of installing a gauge.

thanks for the replies.

Marc, that would be an excellent question for Silverleaf. I looked on the Internet at DDEC II wiring diagrams, and the ECM does not support EGT. Newell does give us extra wires from the engine compartment to the cab, so you could add an EGT sensor and get the wire up to the cab. You'll need to ask them how to get the data into your computer.

[marcg007]

Just posting a follow up incase anyone has similar issues in the future.

installed the newer rom in the ddec. i broke the first ddec ii cover screw, i then soaked all again an waited over night. next morning 2nd screw broke an then 3rd on an on. tried screwdriver an impact, all broke. after rom replaced i used some 5/8 in length self tappers to fasten back together. sealed it up nice.


i cleaned the radiator 2 times with gunk foam degrease, 2 times with full strength simple green safe for alum. i started an let fan blow foam degrease or simple green into radiator. waited 30min an i then power washed within reason the 2nd -4th time cleanings. both sides of radiator every time. Alot of stuff came out, BUT, i realized after i pulled the radiator that there was still was alot more that i could never probably remove.

so the temp gauge was off 22deg f when the vmspc indicated 180deg f. but she continually kept rising, an after about 40 min we where eat 205deg indicating on vmspc temp. at that point my analog gauge read 240. so that was 35degf off, assuming the temp coolant sender was correct.

At this point i went straight into thought of getting the radiator professionally cleaned & flushed an tested. when we pulled it there was definite scale buildup inside the tanks looking down at the core. the whitish scale was near most cooling ports. definite blockage so i brought it to a radiator shop.

also i was happy to see there was no oil slick in the coolant. no slime. no gel indicating silicate drop out. i saved some of the coolant an will find a place to have it tested.


while the radiator is being worked on i am replacing all the belts, water pump, thermostats, coolant temp sensor, an multiple radiator hoses while the radiator is out.


incase the radiator repair seems to be to much, where is a good place to obtain a new radiator or new core? so far over on bus conversion dot*** i seen most speak of detroit radiator corp. any other suggestions on where i can find a replacement radiator or core replacement?

thanks all to have responded, mrE

marc

[rheavn]

Marc,
Most likely this is the company who built your original radiator.

http://atlasradiator.cc/products.html

[MrE]

Originally Posted by marcg007

incase the radiator repair seems to be to much, where is a good place to obtain a new radiator or new core? so far over on bus conversion dot*** i seen most speak of detroit radiator corp. any other suggestions on where i can find a replacement radiator or core replacement?marc

The radiator shop should be able to locate a replacement core for you.

[OldGrayRider]

>while the radiator is being worked on i am replacing all the belts, water pump, thermostats, coolant temp sensor, an multiple radiator hoses while the radiator is out<

Don't mean to hijack your thread but I am considering purchase of a '91. I have concerns about the rear radiator and am wondering if you need to pull it to make the changes you referenced? Any other advice/wisdom you might have about radiator,tranny,or other items would be appreciated.

Thanks
David

[Arize]

Hi Marc, first thing you need is a proper coolant recovery system and radiator cap that can hold the proper pressure and an airtight vacuum during the cool down cycles the CRS 300 is a 3 gallon tank and is well liked with Newell Coach and Detroit Diesel Corp.