No 12 volt?

[chockwald]

Pretty sure the problem is in the on/off switch box next to genset.....open it up tomorrow and see what's going on. My first time way under the coach (had it blocked, of course) to disconnect the genset exhaust so I could pull it out....all manual..haha!

Still cold there, huh? Wow....still cold across Texas too....snow in Austin, TX a few days ago. Rain 4 out of last 5 weekends....only seems to rain on the weekends this year. Sitting inside recuperating from an 8 day chest cold, and watching the rain come down.

Some earthquake in Chile, huh?

[Richard and Rhonda]

Don't know about your setup, but mine has two of the old glass type fuses right there at the control box. Look around and see if you have some.

I am assuming you measured voltage at the trigger of the starter solenoid and saw none when you hit the go button? Or asked in another way, why do you suspect the switch? Inquiring minds you know :-)

[prairieschooner]

There is circuitry that will shut down the AC Generator for Low Oil Pressure or High Temperature, I have seen starting problems with sensors and circuit boards. Can you scan the Wiring Diagram from the Manual?

[chockwald]

Richard......Didn't get back to the coach yesterday....it literally rained all day and into the evening. Even had a rare thunder/lightning show last night. I suspect something wrong inside the switch box.....a few weeks ago when I drove down to Temecula in the heavy rain storm the genset wouldn't start the next morning....it would turn over, but I believe the propane solenoid was not getting power. That afternoon after it dried out it started up and ran fine. I even ran it on the way home from Rancho Jurupa after our President's Day weekend, and it ran fine for 45 minutes under full load. Then last week after I had the "ground" issue on the rear panel, the propane solenoid trigger was getting power, but the starter solenoid trigger was not.

When the propane solenoid trigger was getting power I jumped the two terminals on the starter solenoid and got it to start and run, and was able to shut it down. I assumed it was the solenoid (at that time) that was bad.....OK, only a $12 part. When installed the new solenoid and turned on the house batteries the generator tried to start all by itself. I then disconnected the wire to the starter, turned on the batteries and found that the trigger was getting power all the time, whether or not I pushed the starter switch. I went inside and toggled the starter switch on the instrument panel, then went outside, turned off the batteries, and reconnected the starter. I turned on the batteries again, and it was quiet, as it should be, however, now I am not getter power to either trigger when pressing the starter switch, inside, or outside.

There are two sets of wires that connect to the starter box...both have molded plastic connectors with a number of pins inside of each. The larger one appears cracked, and I suspect that is how water got in on the trip down to Temecula.....so I will try to get back over today (still somewhat sick) and open up the box and see what I see inside. It got too dark and cold Friday for me to investigate the box further.

Is it possible there are fuses inside the box? I didn't see any on the outside the other day, and I was looking.

Steve...checked both oil and coolant levels and both are fine....I suspected that at first....I was hoping it was that simple. Now I'm thinking something has shorted inside the fuse box, or that there are fuses in there that have blown....hope, hope it's that simple. Then just clean up the box, wiring, and replace fuses. Otherwise, maybe the switch has gone bad....who knows.

The one great thing about these last two issues is that I'm learning a lot about my coach that I didn't know before.

[prairieschooner]

the Circuitry that I was talking about doesn't check Fluid Levels although it would shut down the AC Generator in case of trouble.
Not sure that this is your problem since there are so many variables, just a "heads up".

[chockwald]

Thanks, Steve.....if the fix isn't in the "box" the next thing will be the issue you are talking about. Since I've been able to start it bypassing the starter solenoid I'm inclined to think the issue is in the switch box, but I have been wrong before...haha!

Just returned from Urgent Care....I officially have tonsilitis and have been started on a round of antibiotics. Think I'll just take at easy the rest of the day...there's always tomorrow.

[fulltiming]

Take care of yourself Clarke. Tonsilitis isn't fun as a kid and gets worse with age.

I know your genset is different than our diesel units but on ours, there is a fuse inside the control box on top of the generator. Hopefully it just blew due to moisture on a connector grounding out the power.

[chockwald]

Morning Michael.....finally on the mend. I used to get tonsilitis a lot when I was young, and you are right...the worst case I ever had was in 1991 when I was 41. Fortunately, as I have gotten older the frequency has slowed way down.

I'm hoping it's a fuse also! Will update when I get a chance to get back over to the storage yard and open it up.

[chockwald]

OK.....it stopped raining this morning so I went up to the coach and rolled out the genset again to open up the "controller" box (Kohler's term)....I call it the "switch" box. Anyway after checking all 4 switches that can be used to turn on and off the genset (one on the dash, one in the bathroom, one in the bedroom and the one on the "controller" box) and finding them all in proper working order I have narrowed down the problem to one of the relays inside the box, and more specifically the one on the right. I've ordered 3 new ones online today and hope to have them sometime this week. Here is a picture of the inside wiring and relays. As you will recall, the problem is that power is being sent to the trigger wire for the starter solenoid continuously, so one of the relays must be stuck in the "on" position. The relay on the right is slightly different than the other two so I have ordered one just like it, and duplicated the other two. Will replace one at a time to isolate which one is bad. Wish me luck!

By the way, there is one inline fuse inside the box, and it was OK.

[chockwald]

OK...got the new relays in. I've just switched out the one on the right for now. I'll take the whole assembly up to the coach in the morning and plug it in and see what we have...fingers crossed!!! After studying the wiring schematic, Richard and I both agree that the one on the right is the one that powers the trigger wire for the starter solenoid, so we'll see.......

[chockwald]

I know ya'll are just waitng with "baited breath" to hear how things came out......well, the 3 relays were not the problem....sigh! I first installed the "3CR" relay, and hooked her back up, then turned on the battery.....spontaneous starting again. So, I replaced the other two relays--1CR and 2CR (I ordered all 3...had to go to two different vendors as the 3CR relay is a different part # from the 1CR and 2CR relays), and still got the same result. The trigger wire for the starter solenoid continues to receive power all the time. I then crawled under the Newell and unscrewed the panel on the rear of the generator where all the 12 volt and 120 volt wiring comes out.....there are also two breaker switches back there for the 120 I assume. There is another 12 volt relay there that has wires running to the controller box, but it has a different number on it than the other 3. I tried looking up that part number (A410-366575-15) on Google like I did the others, but only got 1 hit, and it was a forum where some guy was trying to reconnect the wires to one of the 3 relays in the controller box that someone had disconnected. My next move is to call Kohler and see if they can tell me where to get that relay.

In the mean time I have resorted to Tom McCloud's solution to another electrical issue I had with the A/C last summer....we installed a temporary/permanent switch to turn off the A/C dryer manually since it was not cycling off automatically, and causing the system to ice up. I have installed a separate temporary/permanent ignition for the generator.....I disconnected the trigger wire from the starter solenoid spliced in a 10 foot piece of #14 wire and ran it up into the cockpit area to a push button switch, and then ran a wire from the other terminal on that push button switch back down to the starter solenoid, so I can now start it from inside the motorhome (temporarily I hope), but I have to also press the original starter switch to activate the propane solenoid so it will start. I can still turn off the generator by pushing the original switch to the "OFF" position.

So, that's my story, and I'm sticking to it. If anyone has any other ideas about what is causing power to be sent to the trigger 100% of the time, I am all ears. I just hate ordering one part after another, not really knowing what the problem is. I did an ohm test on all four toggle switches that can be used to start the generator and they all showed "0" at the neutral position, which I am assuming is what it should be.

[HoosierDaddy]

Clarke,
It could be my ADD but I dont see where you mentioned checking the switch on your instrument panel. Could it be faulty?

[chockwald]

That is one of the 4 switches I checked. I have a switch on the instrument panel, one in the bathroom, one in the bedroom, and, of course, the one on the controller box at the generator. All 4 checked out. The instrument panel switch is the one I have to push in conjuntion with the temporary starter switch to start the generator now. When I press the original switch it does send a signal to the propane solenoid, opening it up and allowing propane to flow into the engine.....is that totally confusing?

(Added 3-12-2010 at 7am).....I might add that Steve Ward has suggested that a better way to test the 4 toggle switches is for voltage, not resistance....I've been doing ohm tests, so when he gets back in town we'll hookup and, as Steve says, "put a meter on it!".

[prairieschooner]

OK so now you have contradicted some earlier posts.
You posted (post #12) that this problem started out as NOT able to Start the AC Generator. Then (post #1 you jumped the Solenoid and wound up replacing it. Then (post #24) there is something about the Trigger staying Energized? This suggests that the original problem has changed.
I would suggest that you go back to the beginning and make sure that all Jumpers are removed and that the Circuitry is Restored, including the Original Solenoid and Relays.
The Relays are only Switches that the Contacts are Made or Disconnected with an Electrical Signal. They have what is called Normally Open or Normally Closed Contacts that Become Closed or Open after the Relay receives the Signal and becomes Energized.
I would Caution you not to Operate the AC Generator with something Jumpered to get it to Start. Without seeing the Schematic for your AC Generator I would bet that the Relays are used in a Circuit that is related to the Oil Pressure and Coolant Temperature.
This is just an opinion but you did ask for ideas in you last post. It is time to get out a Schematic and Troubleshoot this problem, replacing parts could get expensive.

[prairieschooner]

Clarke,
I have been looking at the Schematic for your Genny.
1CR, 2CR and 3CR are Control Relays that are in the 12 Volts DC Circuit, they are most likely all the same with wires attached at the Terminals needed for that Relay's Purpose. 4CR is the Control Relay that is Energized with the AC Circuit after 3 Amp Fuse, Bridge Rectifier and small Transformer with the AC Generator portion of the Circuit.
The LOP Contact in the Stop Circuit (1CR Coil) is for Low Oil Pressure Shut Down and the HWT Contact in the Stop Circuit (1CR Coil) is for High Water Temperature Shut Down.
We are at the CRA Resort at Yuma Lakes, Tom knows where this is. I'll give you a call when we get back into So. CA and see if we can get together and put a Meter on this.

[chockwald]

Steve.....when it comes to the electrical I am a mass of contradictions....haha! Thanks for calling last night. I finally found the 4CR relay on the wiring diagram! That is the one I found on the back side of the generator. It is yellow. 1CR and 2CR are both identical relays (same part number). 3CR is a different part number, and 4CR is a completely different part number (A410-366575-15) from the other 3. I was able to find the 3 in the controller box online. I am not able to find the 4CR online, so if we have to replace it we'll have to find something that is comparable...I'm sure you'll know what will work as a substitute if it needs to be replaced after you see the specs on the side of it. The 3 in the controller box have see through casings, while 4CR is yellow, and opaque. All 4 have 8 contacts, but not all contacts have wires attached, naturally. At any rate, look forward to hearing from you when you get back from Yuma. We'll make a weekend of it! Wherever we meet up let's be sure the pad is nice and smooth so we can get under the coach on the creepers easily.

One thing about this experience is that I'm getting used to being under the coach....of course I have liberally blocked the frame so I am not in danger of getting squished!

[prairieschooner]

Actually the Relays have 8 Terminals. 2 of the Terminals are the Coil and the other Terminals are for the Contacts Normally Open Energized Closed or Normally Closed Energized Open, depending on the Circuit.

[chockwald]

I'm sure I'm using the wrong terminology..... See you in a couple of weeks!

[prairieschooner]

Clarke,
We just got home last night from our travels. Let's try to find someplace to get a look at your AC Generator.

[chockwald]

Originally Posted by prairieschooner

Clarke,
We just got home last night from our travels. Let's try to find someplace to get a look at your AC Generator.

OK.....where will you be this weekend? Or, next week for that matter?