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Old 05-23-2010, 11:51 AM   #1
folivier
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Default 4-speed lockup?

On our way home from Desoto SP in northeast Alabama running the hills between Tuscaloosa & Meridian my engine temps are climbing on the hills. Cools off quickly on the downhill side. I'll go from 178 to 190-195, I'm running 62mph. Is there a way to get the 4-speed Allison to shift out of lockup? I'm too fast too shift into 3rd but feel like I'm lugging going uphill.
I did climb a 13% grade for 3.5 miles at 35mph in 2nd gear near Ft. Payne and only got up to 188 so I think my cooling system is ok.
Any suggestions?
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Old 05-23-2010, 12:05 PM   #2
Richard and Rhonda
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Forrest,

Do you mean that you want the torque converter to slip?

Are you running with the Allison in Economy Mode? That will cause it to stay in a higher gear longer in rolling hills.
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Old 05-23-2010, 12:39 PM   #3
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I have the 740 tranny, don't think it has economy mode. It has "lockup" which I take it to mean the same as an automobile torque converter lockup.? There is a definate "shift" feel when lockup engages and lower engine rpms. I have lockup on gears 2-4, kinda feels like an overdrive. If I could find a a way to "shift out of lockup" then it would be running higher rpms at the same road speed.
Thanks
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Old 05-23-2010, 06:51 PM   #4
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Forest, I don't think that there is a way to take it out of lockup manually. Even if there were, I don't really think you would want to do that. When the automatic is unlocked, the transmission temperature will start to climb and fuel mileage will drop. When the transmission temp starts to climb, the engine temperature will be adversely impacted since the transmission cooler will increase the engine radiator temp.

Your engine temps are perfectly normal for an 8V92. Actually quite good. Climbing a steep grade during hot weather can easily send the temperature up to 205+. Keeping the engine temp below 203 is a very good thing. Letting it get above 210 is an extremely bad thing.

Lugging the engine is bad. Lugging is frequently defined as having the engine in a state where applying additional throttle will not cause the vehicle to accelerate (or conversely the engine will no longer maintain the current speed with full throttle). If you are truly lugging an engine, it is better to slow down and let the transmission downshift. One of the disadvantages of a 4-speed transmission is the significant drop in speed necessary to downshift. One of the advantages of the Allison 4 speed is that it is one tough transmission.
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Old 05-23-2010, 08:55 PM   #5
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Thanks Michael. Now for an update: engine temps did the same all the way home, but, once I got into LA (flat) the temp ran around 184, would sometimes drop to 178. When I exited I-55 and entered I-10 and accelerated it jumped up to 189. It leveled at 184. When I got to the Miss. river bridge I shifted to 2nd gear and climbed at 35mph. Temp got up to 193!
Could this be a bad thermostat? If it is a problem I want to fix it before the next trip.
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Old 05-23-2010, 09:12 PM   #6
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Your temperatures indicate that your thermostat is opening at about 178-180. That is what it is supposed to do. The temperature changes you are experiencing are quite normal. Climbing hills will cause a lot of heat and the temperature will go up quickly. Temperatures in the 190-195 range should not be a concern to you at all as long as you are either putting your right foot into it or stuck in heavy traffic.
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Old 05-23-2010, 10:40 PM   #7
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Forest,
How long has it been since you cleaned the Radiator. I clean ours with Simple Green. I spray the cleaning solution on the Radiator from the Engine Side, allow this to sit 15-20 minutes and then spray water to rinse the Radiator Clean from the Outside in. I feel that this allows the Gunk to be Washed out rather than forced further in.
This really may help but be careful not to get any in the water, you don't want to be named with BP Oil;
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Old 05-24-2010, 02:50 AM   #8
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The thing that has me concerned is normally on this bridge the temp only climbs 2-4 degrees. This time it climbed over 193. I guess I'm lugging the engine by driving 62, about 1700 rpm, in the hills. I'll have to learn to slow down on them hills. What concerned me was the temp climbing over 188 when I was accelerating up to 62. It's never done that before, it usually stays at 178-180.
I cleaned the radiator prior to this trip so it was clean before we left. Didn't burn any oil and level stayed the same.
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Old 05-24-2010, 01:41 PM   #9
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Probably need to boost the RPM's up closer to 2,000.....
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Old 05-24-2010, 04:42 PM   #10
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OK, so I think I understand the way lockup works. And when in the hills I have two options: slow down and run in 3rd, or speed up and run in 4th. Either way get the rpms up closer to 2000, when I'm at 62 in 4th my rpms are about 1700. Guess I'll need to take a short road trip and try this out before I pull the thermostats. Thanks guys!
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Old 05-24-2010, 06:13 PM   #11
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yep, gear down and make things easier on that big V8 of yours. I found that we can climb most any grade with our little V6 (6V92) when in 2nd Gear and somewhere around 30 MPH. The best part about that is when we get to the summit we are already slow enough to go down. We found this out when coming home from Creede, CO last summer on 9 1/2% Grades and even one short steeper grade.
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Old 06-14-2010, 03:12 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by folivier View Post
The thing that has me concerned is normally on this bridge the temp only climbs 2-4 degrees. This time it climbed over 193. I guess I'm lugging the engine by driving 62, about 1700 rpm, in the hills. I'll have to learn to slow down on them hills. What concerned me was the temp climbing over 188 when I was accelerating up to 62. It's never done that before, it usually stays at 178-180.
I cleaned the radiator prior to this trip so it was clean before we left. Didn't burn any oil and level stayed the same.
And this is the point in the post where ALARM bells should have started going off......for all of us.

You know your rig and how it performs and what is "normal". So if there is any change, regardless of whether or not it is "within normal operation" boundaries, you "gut" should have a lot of authority.

My money is on your GUT and I suspect tat something has changed.

Poiunts to consider:

The 2 cycle is sensitive to wear and as it ages it starts creating a huge amt of heat that the original design cannot deal with. Even at tasks it did easily. Lots of heat can mean a worn engine.

2 cycles can be worn out in just a few thousand miles because if they are lugged they will suffer combustion chamber over temps even though the engine temp is well within the bounds of "normal". A look into the air boxes can tell you if the thing has been abused and abuse of a 2 cycle is the correct way to drive a 4 stroke...lug it. 2's like3 thge r's and a 4 will wear itself out if reved.

1.700 rpm up hill at max load is LUGGING if you are into the throttle to keep it there. The process is to hit the hill in any gear and then back off the throttle 25% and that is the dooable speed throttle combo. You should be able to give it more throttle and have the bus pick up speed....even if slight. If it just growls louder and doesn't pick up you are in too tall a gear. On a hard pull you are supposed to back down gears till you can feel the governor holding back thge R's by cutting fuel. It is called "riding the gov." and it THE way you go up hill if it is any sort of pull.

A rad can't suffer the degradation of performance that you are experiencing at the given rate. ONE DAY GOOD AND THE NEXT BAD. Your thermostats CAN and WILL fail suddenly. In this case you might be suffering a degradation ovfthe operation. Sure it may open at 179 but it may do that and still not open fully. Soft Fail. They are too cheap and too easy to change to do almost anything else FIRST. Replace BOTH thermos.

The 92 has a thermostat in each head. One can start to fail softly and it will be masked by a temp indication that's only slightly high. This is where your gut comes in.

The temp you read at the front of the bus is for one head only. You have two heads and you need a gauge for each head. The right bank always runs a few degrees hotter cause it cools the aftercooler.

The alarm for over temp should sound at 205. There is a thermo that controls that. The auto shut down thermo should kick in at 210. Both of these are on one ban and as I said if that is the "cool" bank you will already have cracked the other head. The smart money is on installing a over temp and a auto shut down in the second head and just simply connecting them in parallel. The 92 heads crack at 213 and don't believe those stories about mirecles.

When going up hill and you are backing out of the throttle you should see the black smoke QUIT. Black smoke on a hill for more than a few seconds is very bad indication. Keep backing out and down shifting and let the gov do its job.

There is a mod to the 740 that allows you to force lock-up in first so you can use the jake while picking your way down switch backs at 10 MPH. It follows that you can force it out of lock. Given that the trans sheds its heat thru the rad it will increase heat from the trans to do so. Might be that the trans would contribute less than the lugging but the lugging will most certainly KILL the engine.

Get a no contact thermo gun and shoot both rads in and out and compare. Also shoot the rads all over and look for a cool spot. That is where it is plugged. You sound like you have a good system and you certainly "had" and I hope still have a good engine.

John
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Old 06-14-2010, 11:33 AM   #13
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One thing that I noticed is on one leg of the trip we got off the interstate for a couple hundred miles. The hills were steeper and shorter and I was driving around 55. My tranny will not shift to 4th until 55. So I was were the tranny could downshift to 3rd on the hills. The temps were more normal on that section than the interstate. One of the problems is I don't have enough experience driving this thing, and obviously need to change my driving style on hilly interstates. I do plan to take a short road trip and see what the temps do. I have to cross the Miss. river within 30 miles so that'll give me an indication if there is a problem. After that about 100 miles before I hit any significant hills. If I see any temp problems early enough I'll limp home and get it checked out. I didn't think about doing this but after I cross the bridge I'll stop and check my temps at the thermostat housings, etc. with infrared thermometer. That'll be a couple weeks though, I'm replacing the floor in the bathroom and the coach is a mess right now. Really appreciate your thoughts on this.
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Old 06-14-2010, 09:04 PM   #14
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hi forest,

after i replaced a head (and it wasnt from my driving, but the PO), i got paranoid. i ran a bunch of wires from the front dash area to the engine compartment. i put in two new temp senders. one on the drivers where there was a plug. (right below the sender for the DDEC) and i replaced the one on the passenger side. then i put in a digital temp gauge from cyberdyne and put a switch on the gauge to switch between the two senders. so i can measure the temp on each bank. they were not calibrated for my application so i at first calculated the thermistor curve of temp vs ohms and then reality got the best of me, i built a parrarel resisitive network on each sender at the dash switch and put a adjustable pot there and darlene dials in the temps when we are driving compared to the DDEC. crude, but it works. now i am confident of what each banks temp is. i also installed a pyrometer post turbo (cause that was easiest for me) and i watch all the temps now. the ddec (which i highly recommend getting the silverleaf software and adapter cable), the pyro and both banks temp gauges.

i am a geek, i know it.

tom in muggy charlottsville virginia being leaderized at the university of darden. i dont know how y'all handle the humidity.
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Old 06-14-2010, 09:48 PM   #15
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I find this stuff totally interesting, and am totally paranoid about my engine temps, too. Now that I clean my radiator regularly my temps run consistent with conditions (terrain, summer, etc.). The one problem I discovered was after or trip to Creede. While at Tom's cabin I discovered that I had developed an exhaust leak inside the engine compartment that was spewing, obviously, diesel particulate which was being sucked into the radiator. At Tom's cabin we did a pretty through cleaning which got me home, after which I repaired the exhaust leak, and have cleaned the radiator after each trip.

On the humidity deal......without A/C I don't think large parts of our country would be habitable...just returned from Austin, TX where it was 90+% humidity for the week were were there.....makes me appreciate So. Cal. a little more....we may be broke (as a State), but we have low humidity....LOL! While we were there they were finishing up some work resulting from HAIL damage. The contractor came to reattach the fuse box for the A/C to the wall....whatever he did caused the fuse (5amp fuse) in the inside the home portion of the unit to blow....took them most of the day to find the problem and fix it.....just about the time we were getting ready to bail out to the mall they got it going again.
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Old 06-29-2010, 05:42 PM   #16
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Default Engine temp;

In an extended conversation with a DD engineer some years back I was told this.

"If you are not making vapor don't worry about temp. With 50% mixture the boiling point of coolant is about 240 degrees or better. Add a pressure radiator cap and the boiling point goes over 260 degrees. Only when the coolant starts boiling do you get vapor and then you are in deep dodo or at least you heads are.

And I don't really know my temp. If I turn the lights on at night the temp goes up 10 degrees and the fuel gauge goes up also. Some day I may try to fix, but now I just compensate. I do know my horton fan clutch comes on at 200 degrees, but the gauge is at about 210 at that time.

I disagree with the drive it like you hate it. Especially the ddec engines. The DD engineers laugh at the old wives tales.

I normally drive at about 1700 hundred as the best fuel range is 1600 to 1700. This rule I break a high elevations as there is almost no turbo boost at that rpm and power drops way off. I know going west into Flagstaff I usually move up to 1800+ when I cross the AZ boarder from NM.
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