Series 60 Engine Problem, Major, I think - Luxury Coach Lifestyles
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Old 09-06-2010, 06:08 PM   #1
Richard and Rhonda
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Default Series 60 Engine Problem, Major, I think

Well sooner of later it's your turn, I suppose.

Took a short trip of 120 miles this weekend and noticed coolant all over the car and rear grate when we got to the campground.

Long story short is that the engine is pressurizing the coolant. If engine is running coolant is bubbling profusely. The other symptom was that the engine didn't want to crank, like the batteries were weak. That was water getting in the cylinder and causing hydro lock. That's my guess if compression can get to the coolant, then coolant can get to the cylinder.

This is not good. We are high in the West Virginia hills, miles from nowhere, and a tow truck is never going to take us out of this windy road on the hook.

I knew that coolant in the oil is a sure way to sieze the engine. I drained about a quart, and had less than a teaspoon of coolant. Hmmmmmmm, my thoughts (after fitful sleep most of the night) is that the breach is contained to the cooalant-compression system.

So, we crossed fingers, Rhonda followed in the toad, and the coach made it back home without incident.

The VMS shows perfectly normal temps, oil press, boost, everything.

I'll keep you tuned. I now have to find a local shop.

This is NOT a common problem for Series 60's, so I am very curious as to the problem.
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Old 09-07-2010, 11:09 AM   #2
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Richard,

Sorry to read of your troubles. It is amazing you were able to limp back home, but so much better than the tow. My little experience with hydro-lock is that fluid is totally non compressible. I managed to tear up a ring gear in nothing flat when I tried to crank. I think you got lucky to get it started. Please keep us informed and take some pictures because as you say, it may be our turn next. Are you thinking head gasket? At least you will probably get your valve adjustment checked with the repair. Engine access should be interesting.

Good luck,

Russ same engine #530
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Old 09-07-2010, 11:32 AM   #3
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Russ,

I am thinking head gasket because I have violent bubbling in the coolant tank. Violent.

Conventional wisdom from the bus boys is head gasket. My next guess would be a severe crack in the head, and lastly a cylinder liner.

Seems that the pre 2000 Series 60's need upgraded head bolts. Hmmmm, expensive way to learn that I guess.

It if is something as simple as a head gasket, I hope I didn't erode the block or head enough to require machining.

Also, it seems that a common problem is that the cylinder liners can recede into block causing the same issue.

My worry is that I cooked the bearings in the lower end.

After further thought and review I think this has been coming for some time. Starting about two years ago, I had the feeling that I was losing coolant. Not a lot, and I had too small of an overflow tank at the time to separate lost coolant from the inadequate tank issue. I think something finally let loose on this trip. Once I installed a big overflow tank (bug sprayer jug) I began to notice something curious. Coolant would go into the overflow tank, but it would not go back into the engine when the engine cooled down. I now know why. Normally a vacuum would be formed as the engine cooled and suck the coolant back into the radiator. If I had a small breach then it would have broken the vacuum and hence the coolant not returning to the engine like it should.

The interesting thing is that all indicators on the VMSPc are absolutely normal. I drove it back home at 65 mph and got 7.2 mpg.

It will be a while before I can look into this. We are moving the next couple of weeks, buying one house, selling another, and I have this little thing of trying to come up to speed in a new assignment. Getting the coach back to storage meant that I could deal with the problem at my leisure, in other words, after I get the rest of my more urgent life issues sorted.

I will post on what we find, but right now if I had a Series 60 prior to 2000, I would be finding out if the head bolts had been replaced.
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Old 09-07-2010, 01:00 PM   #4
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Richard,

This may be a little off subject, but it may be of some help.

I had a boat with 2 Cummins 903s and one of them developed 3 cracked pistons. A friend suggested that I report the engine failure to my insurance company as a claim. I did, and surprisingly they paid for 2/3s of the bill less my deductible! Cummins also stepped up to the plate and paid for the parts to replace the cracked pistons. So a $6,000 bill only cost me $2,000 out of pocket.

Just a thought!

Richard, are the head bolts replaced when the valves are set? I have been planning to have my valves set but have been putting it off. My coach is a 99 so it would fall into the pre-2000 parameter.
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Old 09-07-2010, 11:54 PM   #5
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Tuga,

I'll check my policy, but I am not holding my breath on that.

When the valve cover is off would be an excellent time to replace the bolts.
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Old 09-08-2010, 04:49 AM   #6
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i read there are 38 head bolts on a series 60, is that true?

i was trying to do some research on rod and main bearings. when my head cracked on my 8v92, there was coolant in the oil and they changed the head, the sleeve and piston for that cylinder and ALL the rod and main bearings. they have a technique on the 8v92 to change them without removing the crank.

you are spot on your options.

hey, there is nothing a credit card cant fix.

good thing you dont live in it richard. you can set it aside and just worry for awhile instead.

tom
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Old 09-08-2010, 10:23 AM   #7
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On Sunday I was crying the blues. Now, I am really trying to evaluate whether I take on this project myself. A complete in frame kit can be had for under 4k, so the labor is what kills you on these jobs. I just need to find a place to park it while I could look at it.

I think my very first step will be to remove the bed and top cover to see how the access is. Then I can decide if I want to pull the head myself.

No fear and pathological optimism is a dangerous combo.

Stay tuned, I have this small matter of getting moved first.

But I can start spraying penetrating oil on the exhaust manifold bolts :-)
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Subaru Outback toad
CoMotion Tandem
Often wrong, but seldom in doubt
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Old 09-08-2010, 12:26 PM   #8
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Humor me a little...

Drain out the air, remove the air compressor discharge line and start up the coach.

You could have a problem with the air compressor or you might have a shutter control (plunger style) valve built into a coolant passageway.

10 minutes now might save you several thousand dollars.

If it doesn't... you only wasted a few minutes.
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Old 09-08-2010, 12:52 PM   #9
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Bill,

I will try that when I get back to the coach.

I am not hopeful though, since I did have a trace of coolant in the oil and the coolant has a grayish tint and slight diesel smell. NAPA has a kit to detect exhaust in coolant that I think I will get.

Thank you for the heads up.
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Old 09-09-2010, 05:50 AM   #10
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Richard.

i really dont think there is any magic in rebuilding the series 60. but there are likely a number of expensive specialized tools.

i would talk to a mechanic that works on them and get an opinion.

i was told by my mechanic that he has had some troubles using rebuild kits that are not DD.

tom
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Old 09-09-2010, 11:28 AM   #11
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I snagged a S 60 manual on the ebay. I have some reading to do first.
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Old 09-28-2010, 01:18 PM   #12
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FWIW- Detroit Diesel released a new Series 60 metal sandwich type head gasket in 2009 requiring the use of newer style head-bolts ( part #'s 23530768). Perhaps there was a head-gasket issue with higher mileage over-the-road trucks. The Newell service folks do not recall any head gasket issues with Series 60 engines in Newell Coaches.

.....and yes, unfortunately, or fortunately, there are 38 head bolts on a series 60 engine, and their torque is 220 lb-ft for a total of 8360 lb ft ..... and that's a 'whole bunch' of clamping pressure!

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Old 09-28-2010, 07:58 PM   #13
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Thanks John, good post.
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Old 09-30-2010, 11:50 PM   #14
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There is no update.

The coach sits, and I debate. I look at unpacked boxes in our new to us home, and wonder if I want to take on this project or throw plastic at it. I only change my mind a couple of times a day.

The pros of plastic.....quick, some sort of warranty, easy

The pros of DIY.....cheaper, much cheaper, satisfaction of DIY, probably acquire some new tools in the process (like a big a$$ torque wrench)

The cons of plastic.....two, $$$$$$$, and I am hardly ever pleased with another mechanics work

The cons of DIY........another project added to already full list, coach could sit for some time until I finish, once you pop the head you are COMMITTED, greasy hands (oh wait, that's a plus), warranty by Richard.

I know most of you don't care, or haven't done any research into this, but let me give you some ballpark figures. If it's just a blow head gasket, the parts kit is somwhere under a 1000 bucks, and the labor cost is around 4000. If we take it all the way to replace all six cylinder liners and pistons in addition to the head gasket the parts are about 5000, and the labor as high as 15000.

Decisions, decisions.............


Oh well, I'm traveling for a week, and that will give me time to read the DD manual.
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Richard Rhonda Ty and Alex Entrekin
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Subaru Outback toad
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Old 10-01-2010, 12:08 AM   #15
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My concerns with tackling a project of this magnitude would be could I fit in the spaces to work? (may not be as big an issue with a S60), and how would I determine what the extent of the damage is, wouldn't want to leave something undone.
Good luck.
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Old 10-01-2010, 11:49 AM   #16
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Richard,

I have a big a$$ torque wrench; it goes up to 600# I think. Don't buy one; it is yours if I can find it. A friend of mine gave it to me when his Dad passed away. I have not used it once and will never use it. It is about 4 feet long and weighs a ton.

Let me know if you want it. I'll stuff it in an evelope and mail it to you.

And by the way: we all know that you are going to do this project yourself.
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Old 10-01-2010, 12:35 PM   #17
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Yeah, I thought the same thing. I just hope the new house has enough room for all of the new toys...uhh tools!
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Old 10-02-2010, 12:09 PM   #18
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Thanks Tuga. I'll PM you.

That is the one tool that I do need, that I don't have.

You da man !!
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Richard Rhonda Ty and Alex Entrekin
1995 Newell # 390 DD Series 60, Allison World Trans
Subaru Outback toad
CoMotion Tandem
Often wrong, but seldom in doubt
Rhonda's chronicle https://wersquared.wordpress.com/
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Old 10-31-2010, 11:48 PM   #19
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Here is an update. The coach had to wait while we settled into our new digs in WV. Then there is this matter of a new job. And a some mountain biking exploration just for grins.

This weekend I started on the great engine spit and duct tape repair. No I don't know what is wrong yet.

A couple of weeks ago I disconnected the air discharge hose from the compressor just to make sure I didn't have a compressor gone bad. Nope, that wasn't it. Still bubbling the coolant like mad.

When I drained the oil yesterday, it looked like about half a gallon of coolant in the oil. This is not good.

As of tonight, all fluids are drained, the valve cover, jake brakes, and valve train is safely removed. All of the intake air ductwork, turbo, and exhaust manifold are removed. I spent one and half hours removing one bolt on the turbo oil drain. Go figure. The exhaust manifold bolts, which I expected to be bears, came right out with the small impact wrench.

I now have to make a plate to fasten to the crankshaft so I can bar (turn) the engine. I stopped here since I need to line up the timing marks before I remove the camshaft.

The camshaft bearings looked good. No signs of scarring or scuffing from the coolant in the oil. I may get lucky on the mains, only time will tell.

I will say that everything on the Detroit is heavy duty, and heavy too. It is interesting working through the bedroom floor on something that is about 12 inches below grade. Also I discoved a bonus of working on the engine both from the back and through the floor, no matter what tool you need, it's in the other place.

I hope the failure is evident once I get the head off. If not this could turn into quite the treasure hunt.
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Subaru Outback toad
CoMotion Tandem
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Old 11-01-2010, 01:20 PM   #20
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Richard,

Glad the torque wrench was a help for you.

Do you think that talking to a DD mechanic might save you a few steps? I have found that service managers at Newell are very knowledgeable and if they don't know the answer to a problem they can put you in contact with someone who does. These guys have the experience that most of us will never attain. I have found Creslie Clark w/Newell to be especially helpful. He is a really nice guy and is genuinely interested in your problems.
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