Wow! What a price!

[folivier]

Wish I were looking right now. This may be an awesome buy for someone looking to get into a newer Newell.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/2002-NEWELL-QUAD-SLIDE-NEW-GENERATOR-AND-INTERIOR-/230510143343?pt=RVs_Campers

[chockwald]

Yep....just look in my change jar and saw I had a couple 100 thousand in quarters.....LOL....but seriously, this is a good price, even at the "BUY IT NOW" price.

[tuga]

If Cap & Trade passes (which I doubt) diesel will be very expensive for motorhomes!

It will be very interesting to see if anyone bids on this one! Looks like a good price. I would be sure to go to see it before you bid. Sometimes these coaches are not what they appear to be.

Cavet emptor!

[smagown]

I wonder why it has an Onan generator? I haven't seen a Newell with that set up.
Just curious.

Thanks,

[rheavn]

Steve,
The Onan generators are quieter, but they don't make a 20KW. NASCAR teams want quiet as the coaches are parked very close together. This coach only has 2 roof airs--I would be more concerned of that.

JMHO........................

[afrench45]

Steve, I believe this coach has basement air. The 2 covers on top are for the fantastic vent. When I was searching for my coach, it came down between this coach and mine. This coach was much less and had a 4th slide, but felt like it may have lacked maintenance. The coach was owned my M&M I believe, isn't that apart of Mars? They said it had been a hospitality coach. I will say I had a deal negotiated on it 2yrs ago for $300k and it is a very reasonable price now. Even if you did have to put 20-30k in it, you still would have a great coach!

[rheavn]

Frenchs,
I was only going by their ad and every ad I have seen on the coach which states, "Dual Roof Air Conditioning With Heat Pumps". I do not have any first hand knowledge. If it has basement air I would not have the same concern.

[tuga]

The auction ended last night on this coach, and there were no bids. Something is wrong here! Either the coach is not what it appears to be in the ad or the market has gone to pot! I think the former is true!

Maybe the reason for a new generator was that the previous owners wore the first one out using it as a hospitality coach. That would also explain the new carpet.

For a 2002 Newell 45' w/4 slides not to receive a bid starting at $190K is very unusual.

Frenchs, did you physically look at the coach. Did they have any maintenace records? Did you call Newell to see if they had any records on the coach?

You know, I would be very reluctant to buy a coach without some form of maintenance records. I can just imagine all kinds of problems that could evolve from a poorly maintained motorhome. If the seller could produce some maintenance records in the next eBAy ad it might make difference in the bidding.

[chockwald]

On the other hand a 1987 40' Newell originally built for Al Unser and refurbished in 2004 went for $65,000 on Ebay (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=280547176948&viewitem=&sspagename=STRK:MEWAX:IT). It really looks amazing inside and out.

I just haven't seen many coaches (Newells specifically) that bidders manage to push over the "RESERVE" limit. This one made it.

[afrench45]

Tuga,
I did not personally look at the coach. I had numerous phone conversations with a sales representative from California Coach. I have forgotten some of what he told me about the maintenance but I do remember him telling me that there was some black soot in the closet by the half bath due to an exhaust leak from the generator. I know when I looked at it, it was equipped with a Powertech generator because I pulled the pictures I had on it. The main thing that did turn me away from this coach was the lack of maintenance records and that it did not have the CPO warranty.

[rheavn]

There are several things about this coach that just don't add up. If you read the ad(and every ad I've seen on this coach), you find representations that are not true. The ads stated roof airs & an Onan generator. Now one finds out it has a Power Tech generator & basement airs. I never considered this coach because I wanted a different floorplan than this coach has, but having discrepancies in the ad & what the coach actually has is a total turn off to me.

JMHO

[prairieschooner]

A wise man once told me that you only make or loose money when you sell something. I am so-o-o-o-o glad that I found our '82 and was able to make the deal. I have since reduced the insured "market value" so that the rates were more palatable.
Forest, you and Cindy have a wonderful Coach and it doesn't have the Tag! Trisha and I have decided to count our blessings and enjoy what we have until the economy turns around. Just think of all the Diesel that you can buy with the extra cash!
Now doesn't this look inviting?!?! I just had an image of Forest and Cindy in that bunk sharing some Gumbo in an adult fashion !!!

[folivier]

You know Steve, since I've retired I've done some soul searching. I've reviewed my life's goals, wants, etc. and come to the conclusion that the most important thing is family. Cindy and I have come up with "our plan", first thing is to sell the house (don't need 4 bedrooms, sometimes we can't even find each other), then we'll either get an apartment or condo near Thibodaux (gotta be near our granddaughter). That'll free us up for extended trips in our Newell (summers here are complicated with hurricane prep, grass cutting twice a week, etc.). As we travel we'll be looking for a cabin in the mountains (probably Colorado) to spend the summers. We plan to continue travelling, just want to have a nice place where it's cool and the kids can come up and spend time with us. We'll keep our Newell because it has what we want, I know the systems and trust them and can repair them. But the best thing about our plan is that we can change it as we go along. I'm past wanting a large house, yard, etc. I want to be able to travel and see this country while we can. Most of my neighbors think I'm nuts to give up the house ( a couple are envious). But I don't care what they think, if these plans don't work out I'm sure we can find another house.
Oh yeah wherever we end up we will have our gumbo pot with us!

[prairieschooner]

I agree and can relate. We had a house then lived on our 42' wooden sailboat and now live in our cabin in the woods. Our Cabin is about 650 square feet and my Garage is 600 square feet (a man needs a shop).
We chose Idyllwild because of the climate and the close proximity to most everywhere in Southern California and I can still work. We do try to get away when the white stuff starts to stick but this year may stay. We liked Colorado but I am still working, if one could call it that.
Bigger isn't always better.

[chockwald]

Elaine and I are in the same frame of mind. We really enjoy the smaller space, which in turn requires less cleaning, less maintenance, NO lawn to mow, trees to trim, plumbing to fix, etc. Due to the disastrous decline of the Southern California real estate market we will probably hold on to the house for a few more years and lease it out to our kids while we travel. Hopefully, in a few years the market will come back enough to justify selling it and pulling out our equity. At that point we will probably try to find a small cabin somewhere, not in California, to call home base. We have really had it with California. We are looking at the Pacific Northwest somewhere, but Colorado certainly has its allure.

[tuga]

Karen and I just returned from a trip to Alaska. We were gone for about 2 and 1/2 months. During that time I realized that I COULD full time. I could sell the house and live in the Newell and be 100% content. Like Clark, I like the smaller living space; it is also easier to keep clean.

Karen on the other hand feels 180 degrees different. She loves our home and would never consider full timing.

So I guess I will have to dream about full timing vicariously from my buddies on this forum. Keep posting - I'm loving every minute of it.

[chockwald]

Tuga....how was the road, and how did the Newell stand up to the conditions?

[tuga]

Hi Clarke,

The roads in Canada were o.k. to good. Alaska, depending on where you are is a different ballgame. The road from Tok to Hanines Junction to Haines is horrible. The "Top of the World Highway" from Dawson City to Chicken is worse than horrible - deadly would be a better description. My traveling companion slid off the road into a ditch (rain and fog). His Prevost was stuck in knee deep mud; 8 hours and $2,000 later he was pulled out by a wrecker.

Frost heaves (cracks and repairs in the asphalt) create what I call "whoop-dedos". These are undulations in the road and are marked by signs so you know to "slow down". After you see about 200 of these signs and they turn out to be just a little bump in the road you start to ignore them. Big mistake! If you hit one going about 40 you'll remember it. To answer your question about how the Newell held up: GREAT! My Falcon II tow bar was bent and twisted so badly that I had to buy a new one. The retracting shafts were bent so that they could not be slid back into the housing! You can average about 35 mph on these type roads. The rest of the roads were pretty good. About every hundred miles there was a section of road construction that was about 3 to 5 miles long! The lesson to be learned here is "slow down and enjoy". Once I learned to do that I was good to go.


The campgrounds were for the most part crap! 90 degree sites, close together, 30 amp, some with no water or sewer, unlevel gravel sites, dusty, the prices were reasonable compared the quality of the site (about $33 on average; $25-$42). I can say that we had 2 nice parks: one in Tok and one in Haines, the rest were dust bowls. We did a lot of dry camping; the outside temps were perfect for it. High 50s at night and high 60 during the day. You can just pull over in a rest area (they call them pull outs) and cook supper and shower and go to sleep. Very little traffic on the highways at night; I'm talking one or two cars an hour!


Now for the good part, the scenry was outstanding and it made all of the road problems melt away. We saw mountain ranges that went on forever, huge lakes that were created by glaciers, widelife like I have never seen before. I mean you are just sitting there with your mouth open. Denali NP was the highlight of the trip; saw grizzlies, eagles, moose, fox, caribou, etc. The little towns were usually about the gold rush era and services were pretty good. We took some great tours: canoe trip on the Yukon River, riverboat cruise in Fairbanks, rented ATVs in Anchorage, rode a train in Skagway. We put the coaches on a ferry twice; Whittier to Valdez and Haines to Skagway. That was a hoot!


Overall, Alaska was long, expensive, but a lot of fun. Diesel was about $3.80-$4.20 a gallon and hamburgers were $14.75. But despite some of the negatives I would go back in a heartbeat! I loved it, and I loved seeing it in my Newell!

If anyone is considering going my advice is: go slow and bring plenty money!

[chockwald]

Thanks for the information Tuga. After reading the comments of many who have driven the roads I had come to the conclusion that 25-35mph would be as fast as I would want to go, and maybe keep it to a 150 miles per day max. I like the "slow down and enjoy it" advice. What do you think Forest? Let's talk about doing this in Santa Fe!

[folivier]

I'm up for Alaska! Thinking hard either next summer or 2012. Kinda depends on the house situation. But it's not too early to start planning.
Tuga- I'll call you in a couple weeks to get together for dinner. Cindy and I want to pick your brain while the trip is still fresh.

[rheavn]

I know this thread has kind of taken off from the original subject so pardon me, but has any one noticed in the classified section there is a 2 slide 2000 Newell for $175,000? That kind of pricing gets my attention. For some one who is looking it might be worth a call.

[tuga]

I'm up for Alaska! Thinking hard either next summer or 2012. Kinda depends on the house situation. But it's not too early to start planning.
Tuga- I'll call you in a couple weeks to get together for dinner. Cindy and I want to pick your brain while the trip is still fresh.


Great Forest, Karen and I would love to get together with you and Cindy for dinner. We have some great pictures of the trip. Give us a call 985 381 6613.

[tuga]

I know this thread has kind of taken off from the original subject so pardon me, but has any one noticed in the classified section there is a 2 slide 2000 Newell for $175,000? That kind of pricing gets my attention. For some one who is looking it might be worth a call.


Steve,

Where did you see that one?

I think that there are some people out there who are really desperate to sell. That seems to be one of them. If houses aren't selling, how can RVs?

Someone posted the other night that a 1987 Newell sold on eBay for $65,000. I know the owner of that coach and it did NOT sell. He informed me that it is still for sale. I have seen that coach and boy let me tell you - that is a cream puff! I am not saying that it is worth the $65K; that is up to the buyer. But it is a 10 inside and outside.

I think that all motorhome values have taken a dive in the last year or so. And I really believe that they will continue on a downward path. With 10% unemployment what else can you expect! The only thing that can save this economy is a tax cut, and I don't see that happening.

Well, I am going to step down from the soap box now.

[rheavn]

The 2000 2 slide coach that I referred to is in the classified section of this web site. When I was looking for a Newell I believe I called on this coach, but I can't be sure as there are no pictures. I did not consider the coach because it was not the floorplan I wanted. If it is the same coach the seller has reduced his price over $50,000 since I called.

Rvs are certainly not selling at the pre 2008 pace, but well priced coaches are selling. I purchased mine in March of this year, but it was aggressively priced. I recently met two couples that were on their way to trade in their rvs on newer ones and each one said that the new ones were priced so low they couldn't pass up the deal.

[tuga]

How about this one for a low price!

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/2004-Newell-Coach-45-ft-Class-Diesel-Motorhome-/290468882871?pt=RVs_Campers&hash=item43a14b69b7

[rheavn]

Tuga,
I believe that is the coach that started this thread, although it has now been transformed from a 2002 into a 2004. Prior ads have said roof airs--it has basement air. Prior ads have said Onan generator--it has a Power Tech. When it was a 2002 it was priced at $209,000. As a 2004 it is priced at $249,000. I will say again that when I find misrepresentations in an ad it is a red flag. How can one trust anything that they are told?
Welcome back and just for you I will sell you my very clean 2005 Newell for $295,000. Now that's a great price.

[tuga]

Tuga,
I believe that is the coach that started this thread, although it has now been transformed from a 2002 into a 2004. Prior ads have said roof airs--it has basement air. Prior ads have said Onan generator--it has a Power Tech. When it was a 2002 it was priced at $209,000. As a 2004 it is priced at $249,000. I will say again that when I find misrepresentations in an ad it is a red flag. How can one trust anything that they are told?
Welcome back and just for you I will sell you my very clean 2005 Newell for $295,000. Now that's a great price.


Steve,

Red flag is right; how can people live with themselves. You're right, with misrepresentations like this one a buyer is just setting themselves up for a let down.

Thanks for the welcome back; it's good to be home. We had a great time in Alaska!

[Richard and Rhonda]

I may be wrong, but the seller appears to be a large scale wholesaler. It's entirely possible that the person who listed this has NO idea what is accurate.

I know that when I lived in Fort Worth. I went up to a similar operation to inspect a Foretravel for a guy who had seen it on Ebay, but lived too far away to do an onsite. The folks at the dealership didn't have a clue about the coach. They knew cars, and an RV was an oddity.

Still buyer beware is the watchword.

[prairieschooner]

Just to echo what Richard said, I see this allot with Yacht Listings. Most of the time the listing is being typed by someone who is not necessarily familiar with the Yacht being Listed. That is a good reason for the Marine Survey and why I have a job, it was a much better job a few years ago.

[folivier]

Steve, just give it up and come to Alaska with us.

[prairieschooner]

I cannot make it in 2011 but I may be able to go in 2012, don't wait for me though. If Social Security gets extended :cursing:I may have to work until I am much older and then who knows if I'll still be able to drive:drool:.

[chockwald]

Steve, it's time to get "retarded", and come with us for the fellowship....haha!

[Summersgal]

Our 88 is FOR SALE if anyone knows anyone that is interested...Just PM if you have any questions.

Thanks!
Pam

[tuga]

WOW! Here is another one that is priced low.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=110589616110&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT

How many of you guys think that this is a bona fide - real deal SALE!

Or will we see it again in a few months!

[chockwald]

Well, the seller has 563 transactions and a 100% rating so the only question would be was his account hijacked? Unlikely it would go unoticed by the account owner since he is obviously active on Ebay, but there is always the chance. If you look at his feedback you will see a lot of high dollar transactions...many over $10,000, and one over $100,000.

[tuga]

Clarke,

Looks like the real deal; you bring up some good points. What do you think of a 1994 45' Newell selling for $62,000!

IMO, that is way low! But, in today's market who knows. I guess - it is what it is!

[Richard and Rhonda]

I may be wrong, but I think it's the real deal.

Here's why. Back in the spring, before I left Fort Worth. I went to this place and evaluated a Country Coach for a fellow. Turns out I had actually seriously looked at this same coach three years earlier at another dealer in Texas. I watched as it sat on that dealers lot for three years.

So I was suprised to see the coach at Christian's place, at a FAR lower price than what I had been looking at three years ago.

So I drove the coach and had several discussions with both the dealer and the new owner. The dealer looks for coaches at sale that he thinks he can sell low and turn quickly.

The nice thing about the whole experience was that when I showed up at the lot as the "evaluator", and not a potential buyer, I didn't deal with all the happy HS. They gave me free reign, and unlimited driving privileges. It was a totally different experience than when I acted like a "buyer". It was quite fun.

It's the third time I have played that role for a buyer, and all three times the dealership treated me quite differently. There was no sales talk at all. No questions.

This is the very same dealer and place that lowballed a coach about a year ago. It showed up on Ebay again, and then quickly disappeared. Weird stuff happens in deals, but I think this one is legit. The guy is buying wholesale and selling at a little above wholesale on an as is basis.

[chockwald]

Tuga....of course, that is an amazing deal....seems to be about $30-40,000 under market minimum.

[tuga]

I may be wrong, but I think it's the real deal.

Here's why. Back in the spring, before I left Fort Worth. I went to this place and evaluated a Country Coach for a fellow. Turns out I had actually seriously looked at this same coach three years earlier at another dealer in Texas. I watched as it sat on that dealers lot for three years.

So I was suprised to see the coach at Christian's place, at a FAR lower price than what I had been looking at three years ago.

So I drove the coach and had several discussions with both the dealer and the new owner. The dealer looks for coaches at sale that he thinks he can sell low and turn quickly.

The nice thing about the whole experience was that when I showed up at the lot as the "evaluator", and not a potential buyer, I didn't deal with all the happy HS. They gave me free reign, and unlimited driving privileges. It was a totally different experience than when I acted like a "buyer". It was quite fun.

It's the third time I have played that role for a buyer, and all three times the dealership treated me quite differently. There was no sales talk at all. No questions.

This is the very same dealer and place that lowballed a coach about a year ago. It showed up on Ebay again, and then quickly disappeared. Weird stuff happens in deals, but I think this one is legit. The guy is buying wholesale and selling at a little above wholesale on an as is basis.

Richard,

I called and talked to Christian, and he said the buyer hasn't contacted him yet. He said that if the buyer doesn't contact him shortly, he will sell the coach to the second highest bidder if that bidder is still interested. He said that eBay is a weird market. He has put coaches on 2 or 3 times and the bids will increase in dollars each time. Then again the opposite will happen.

I agree with you; this guy is legit. He is just flipping; buy at wholesale and sell a little bit higher (hopefully).

He indicated to me that the present market value is about 40% less than normal depreciation. Boy, I'm glad I don't have to sell now. This market has got to be killing the RV dealers (who have to buy and sell to stay alive!).

Question: Will the market value that has been lost in this downturn ever come back up? Or is it lost forever.

[jwe648]

Time before the Newell.. Saw this.. http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1964-RARE-MOTORIZED-VERSION-STREAMLINE-ALUMINUM-RV-/290482283562?pt=RVs_Campers&hash=item43a217e42a

But ... I even have my limitations....;)

Jimmy

[chockwald]

Interesting Jimmy....the forerunner of the Newell......

[encantotom]

jimmy, don't do it......don't do it

tom

[prairieschooner]

yep, hard to sell retail when the banks are selling wholesale.

[Richard and Rhonda]

Tuga,

You asked if anyone thought the prices would rebound. They may stablilize, but I don't think they will go back up any appreciable amount. I wasn't shocked by the price. When David was selling his coach, he and talked about what Mr. Olivers told him it was worth wholesale. I know that guy and he is a straight shooter. The number he told David was not all that spectacular.

The reason I don't think they will rebound is the simple law of supply and demand. We own a rare breed. So rare that the standard trading books won't even estimate a value. So the value is solely determined by what one person is willing to pay and the other willing to take. I think we are so rare that we are out of the supply and demand model of pricing. The thing that is hurting ALL older high end coaches is financing. The banks will not touch them. You probably are aware that the prices on the Prevosts have taken an unbelievable beating too.

So, where does that put the situation for me. Thankful. Thankful, that the coach is well constructed, and except for my own little anomaly right now, not deteroriating. It serves us well, has all the features to be very comfy, and is built to last for the long haul. I won't pick on any particular brands, but I would be much more nauseated if I owned a sticks and staples coach of the high end variety because I can't see those coaches being in the same condition 15 years from now that I expect my Newell will be.

[photoadjuster]

PopsRvOutlet is a good seller. Two years ago I bought a Beaver Patriot Thunder from another salesman at this same RV dealer in Weatherford. As explained to me, they buy repossessed coaches at auction, make needed repairs and sell them. They must turn them very fast, because their floorplan is only for a few weeks, then they must sell them at auction.
I paid $ 20,000 less for the Beaver than 3 other similar units I was looking at.

They were very upfront with me. I would have bought this newell, but the timing was wrong.

Mike Stephenson
Lubbock, TX

[tuga]

Richard,

I agree with you on pricing and the fact that our coaches will outlast us! The only factor that could change things is a reduction in supply. That being, if Newell would reduce production down to 20 to 25 coaches a year or less. That event would in turn put fewer coaches on the used market which would stabilize prices. The economy will rebound one day; when is anyone's guess.

I agree that Paul Davis is a no nonsense straight shooter. He knows the true value of MHs; he sees both sides of the market everyday. Anyone who is really serious about selling their coach should consider listing it with Paul. He knows the true value and how to market it. IMO, over-pricing a coach is the single largest mistake that a seller makes when selling. We all feel that our coach is worth more - just because it is our BABY!

Thanks for your insight. Looks like I will be driving #512 for a long, long time. Glad I have a Newell.

[jwe648]

The 94' that just showed up in the classifieds @ 68k.. the ad speaks of bumps in the headliner (ceiling)... looking at the photos in the ad.. Wouldn't that be caused by water leaks in the roof causing the plywood around the rivet area to swell?

Thoughts?

[Richard and Rhonda]

Really hard to say without an up close inspection. If that ceiling is like mine, the vinyl is stretched between two pieces of plywood that are screwed to the plywood ceiling. The plywood bosses protrude about half an inch. It looks like the puckering is on the bosses themselves. I am try to imagine what has caused that.

I wouldn't jump to water and rivets without looking at it. You may be right, but who knows.

[jwe648]

There is another ad that shows larger photos http://dallas.craigslist.org/ftw/rvs/1988549893.html

I tried to contact them no response..
Jimmy

Really hard to say without an up close inspection. If that ceiling is like mine, the vinyl is stretched between two pieces of plywood that are screwed to the plywood ceiling. The plywood bosses protrude about half an inch. It looks like the puckering is on the bosses themselves. I am try to imagine what has caused that.

I wouldn't jump to water and rivets without looking at it. You may be right, but who knows.

[GSrdr]

The engine bay sure looks clean, dusty but otherwise clean.

[GSrdr]

The old cellphone is evidence that this Newell has been idle quite a while. Estate sale?

Apply the LineX to the roof to make sure everything is forever waterproof, repair the headliner, some more of this and that, and someone will have a very nice Newell at a very good price.

[GSrdr]

This is the best I can do with the headliner. Small photos make for too few pixels to work with.

[photoadjuster]

What gas mileage would you expect to get with this coach, towing a 6,500 toad? I assume it is the DD 8v92 DDEC.

Mike Stephenson
Lubbock,TX

[encantotom]

i get 6.5 to 7 towing and with the generator running. the genny gets about .5 or a little more gallons per hour.

i dont think anyone with the 8v92 is going to get much different. if you drivr 55 all the time on flat roads it might get .5 to 1 mpg more, perhaps.

these are not economy rigs....

tom

[photoadjuster]

Thanks Tom, I have to tow a Class B motorhome (Sprinter MB Cruiser) used as a mobile office. I have a Beaver Patriot Thunder with the 455 cat C-12. My mileage is 8 to 8.5. I am shopping for a Newell. Could you tell me what year they went to the Series 60 and what the difference in performance and mileage might be versus the 8v92.

[encantotom]

late 94 and most 95's on are s60. i know they get better mileage by a little and mixed with the 6 speed allison rather than the ht740 4 speed my ol rig has give some better performance, but you would have to get some of the guys like Tuga who has had 8v92's and s60 to comment.

tom

[afrench45]

Well I'm not Tuga, but I have a 60 series so I guess I'll chime in! I average about 6.5-6.8mpg. However I usually run 75-80 while pulling an H2.

[rheavn]

I don't tow quite that heavy a toad and I cruise about 63mph and average between 7.5 & 8.0 with my series 60.

[Richard and Rhonda]

I run 63 to 70 towing a Subaru. Running the genny most of the time to keep the princess cool. 6.8 to 7.2 mpg. Rhonda drives 60 to 63 when she drives and the mileage will go up to about 7.5. Of course, I'm drinking coffee while she's driving, so as soon as we switch drivers the speed goes up and the mileage down :-)

I've done 7.8 on a long run in the winter without the genny and a tow car.

[tuga]

late 94 and most 95's on are s60. i know they get better mileage by a little and mixed with the 6 speed allison rather than the ht740 4 speed my ol rig has give some better performance, but you would have to get some of the guys like Tuga who has had 8v92's and s60 to comment.

tom

Tom,

My 8V92 got 5.5 mpg driving 65 towing a Yukon
My s 60 gets 7.5 mpg driving 65 towing a Pilot

Those are averages over flat, hilly, mountains, etc.

I like the s 60 much better; runs cooler in the mountains and doesn't throw oil like the 8V92. But the 8V92 had a sweet sound at idle!

Like everything else there are pluses and minuses.