House Batteries

[tuga]

Has anyone purchased a set of 8D house batteries lately?

I need a set of Lifeline Concorde AGM (255 amp @ 20 hour) 8Ds for the house. I priced them at Newell ($594 each). Just thought I would check around to see if anyone had a better price. Batteries Plus has them for $616 plus shipping.

An inverter repair technician told me to replace the AGMs with wet cell deep cycle batteries. Wet cell batteries have been frowned upon because when they "gas" it makes a mess in the bay and there is the danger of explosion. He says that there are new battery caps that route the fluid back into the cells when gassing occurs.

I'm not buying this "wet cell - new battery cap" approach. I am going to follow Newell's advice; install AGM Lifelines - they're the BEST!

I would appreciate your thoughts.

[chockwald]

Have only used wet cell 8D batteries in the 2+ years we have had our Newell, and they work great. Our battery compartments are vented and I don't think there is much risk of an explosion. Ever since we installed the Progressive Dynamics multi stage converter we have not lost one battery. They only cost around $200, or less, each.

[encantotom]

there are only actually a small group of actual manufacturers of batteries.

i know everyone loves the lifelines, but they are premium priced. i bought AGM batteries from Interstate and paid 400 apiece. they have been fine.

tom

[prairieschooner]

back to batteries again, and I'm sure we will be discussing this for years to come.
Flooded Lead Acid - Forgiving if you keep up with the Level because they do gas. You need to check them often and carry distilled water to keep them topped off. 6 Volt Golf Cart the best for the House application.
AGM (Absoberbed Glass Mat) - Best if you will not be checking the level without question. For optimum Charging, they do require a different Charge Rate and will require at least a yearly conditioning. Lifeline told me to use (I believe) the Equalizing Phase of the Battery Charger on a yearly basis.
Gell - Not as good as the AGM but less in price, some may disagree with me because they will last along time if all of the parameters are followed. They do require a different Charge Rate than the other type of batteries.
Personally I chose the Golf Cart type 6 Volt Batteries for the House and 8D Batteries for the Starting. I carry distilled water and check them often but haven't had to top off the batteries very much. I chose to cycle the batteries and not keep a charger on all of the time. I also use Solar Panels with a Blue Sky Regulator and do not allow it to Charge Continuously either. I feel that over charging batteries will lead to early failure.
just my 2 cents worth and I'm sticking to it!!

[tuga]

Clarke,

Please re-read your post and edit it -

"they do require a different Charge Rate and will require at least a yearly ________?

Thanks.

[tuga]

there are only actually a small group of actual manufacturers of batteries.

i know everyone loves the lifelines, but they are premium priced. i bought AGM batteries from Interstate and paid 400 apiece. they have been fine.

tom

Thanks Tom, I will check Interstate tomorrow. It would be nice to save $194/battery X 6 = $1164. I'll buy you a rootbeer float next time I see you; using your home made root beer! Boy that stuff was gooood!

How can I find the correct charge rate for AGMs? The AGMs that Newell installed in my 1999 model is rated at 255 amps @ 20 hours - whatever that means?

So should I set the charger to charge them up to 13.2 or 13.8 or 14.2 ?????

I learned how to change the charge rate using the Link 2000 last time I was at Newell
it's pretty easy.

[prairieschooner]

Tuga,
I edited my post, that was me not Clarke. I would get with the Battery Manufacturer and query them as to the proper Charging Voltage.
Looks like it is 14.2 14.4 (I would suggest the 14.2) for the Bulk Rate and 13.2 - 13.4 for the Float (again I would suggest 13.2);
http://www.lifelinebatteries.com/manual.php

[tuga]

Sorry for the mix up Steve.

You know, when I had my batteries tested at Batteries Plus the girl who tested them dialed the tester up to 1600 amps! This seems kind of high for a test on a battery that is rated at 255 amp for 20 hours!

What do you guys think?

[tuga]

back to batteries again, and I'm sure we will be discussing this for years to come.
Flooded Lead Acid - Forgiving if you keep up with the Level because they do gas. You need to check them often and carry distilled water to keep them topped off. 6 Volt Golf Cart the best for the House application.
AGM (Absoberbed Glass Mat) - Best if you will not be checking the level without question. For optimum Charging, they do require a different Charge Rate and will require at least a yearly conditioning. Lifeline told me to use (I believe) the Equalizing Phase of the Battery Charger on a yearly basis.
Gell - Not as good as the AGM but less in price, some may disagree with me because they will last along time if all of the parameters are followed. They do require a different Charge Rate than the other type of batteries.
Personally I chose the Golf Cart type 6 Volt Batteries for the House and 8D Batteries for the Starting. I carry distilled water and check them often but haven't had to top off the batteries very much. I chose to cycle the batteries and not keep a charger on all of the time. I also use Solar Panels with a Blue Sky Regulator and do not allow it to Charge Continuously either. I feel that over charging batteries will lead to early failure.
just my 2 cents worth and I'm sticking to it!!

I have Power Pulse on all of my batteries. Power Pulse, as I understand it, is suppose to keep sulfation from forming on the battery plates. Sounds like equalizing batteries is the same thing: just shaking the plates up and knocking off the sulfur that forms on the plates.

Am I on the right track?

Another question Steve, what rate of charge should the inverter/converter be set at for AGMs? 13.2 sounds about right to me.

[Richard and Rhonda]

Oh, you did it now. Invoked the chemical engineer talk.

Seriously the power pulse and equalization are not exactly the same things. The power pulse generates a frequency sweep of pulses across the plates which breaks up the crystals of deposits that form on the surface of the plates. Over time those crystal deposits become a barrier between the lead and the acid, and therefore decrease the chemical efficiency.

Battery equalization intentionally boils the acid in the battery. That does two things. One it simply stirs up the acid. The acid can stratify and become stronger at the bottom of the cell and weaker at the top. Boiling it simply stirs it up and equalizes the concentration gradient. And because the crystals that dissolve will go back into solution at a higher temperature ( like tea will hold more sugar if its hot) some of the crystals that have formed on the surface will go back into solution.

Was that clear as mud, or dense as lead?

[folivier]

Ok, so which one is better?

[Wally Arntzen]

Tuga, i'v had catipiler maintanance free batteries in my coach for 6 years no and they are great. They are pricey but my son-in-law is and executive with them and he got me a great price on them at a Cat dealer in Minnesota.

[tuga]

Oh, you did it now. Invoked the chemical engineer talk.

Seriously the power pulse and equalization are not exactly the same things. The power pulse generates a frequency sweep of pulses across the plates which breaks up the crystals of deposits that form on the surface of the plates. Over time those crystal deposits become a barrier between the lead and the acid, and therefore decrease the chemical efficiency.

Battery equalization intentionally boils the acid in the battery. That does two things. One it simply stirs up the acid. The acid can stratify and become stronger at the bottom of the cell and weaker at the top. Boiling it simply stirs it up and equalizes the concentration gradient. And because the crystals that dissolve will go back into solution at a higher temperature ( like tea will hold more sugar if its hot) some of the crystals that have formed on the surface will go back into solution.

Was that clear as mud, or dense as lead?

Good post Richard, that is a great explanation. I feel that equalizing the batteries is the way to go. Now, do I go shopping for a battery charger that will "equalize" or boil the AGMs? Or is there a commerical battery shop that will equalize them for me? One more question: Batteries Plus tested one of my AGMs using a load tester and put 1600 amps on it. It tested bad. Do you think that this was an excessive load for a 255 amp battery?


Forest, my answer as to which one is best is: equalization. I installed the Power Pulse units when I purchased the 6 AGMs new from Newell in January 2006. Since they have only lasted about 5 years the Power Pulse doesn't seem to justify its cost ($80 each X 3). One Power Pulse unit can handle 2 batteries (actually 3 batteries but since mine are in 2 separate bays I needed to buy 3 Power Pulse units).

[folivier]

Just wondering Tuga, you said in another post that your inverter was burnt up at a campground. You think that could have caused a problem with your batteries, or maybe them not getting charged fully?

[Richard and Rhonda]

I don't have any data, but my intuition is that a combination of both is the best. The constant pulse of the Powerpulse should in theory keep any sulfate or calcium crystal from forming. But the Powerpulse does nothing for the acid stratification. Equalization is supposed to fix that.

Keep in mind this is all "theory" I have summarized from battery research.

Both of these techniques are raindrops in the ocean compared to the real battery killers. The number one is discharging the batteries below about 11.4 volts, and the second is heat.

[Richard and Rhonda]

Tuga,

I had the same thought as Forrest. Isolate the one "bad" battery. Put a stand alone 2 amp trickle charger on it for 24 hours and retest it. You may be able to bring it back. Sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't.

Also your batteries were subjected to a ton of vibration on your recent trip. Batteries don't like that. Things shake loose inside and short out cells.

[tuga]

Just wondering Tuga, you said in another post that your inverter was burnt up at a campground. You think that could have caused a problem with your batteries, or maybe them not getting charged fully?


Forest,

Since I made that statement, I have talked to the repair shop in Houston that has my inverter. Good News - the inverter is working perfectly - there is nothing wrong with it. It is inverting now (it would not invert DC to AC in my coach). So at this point, we don't know where the problem is or even if we have a problem. The battery charger part of the inverter always did work so I doubt if that could have caused a problem with the batteries. Personally, I don't think my batteries are bad.

See my post under the "Polarity" thread.

[prairieschooner]

it is called sulfate Richard.
Tuga it may have only been a circuit breaker or possibly the large fuse? The Heart Inverter has an Equalization Function.