Clogged Waste Tank

[prestadude]

I just got back a few hours ago driving our coach from Newell to Sacramento. This was the last step of a very long process that started in May, 2009:
1. Mid-May 2009 - Purchase coach, shuttle from Phoenix to Sacramento
2. Early July 2009 - Drive coach to Indiana for handicapped conversion work
3. Mid July, 2010 - Handicapped conversion work done, drive coach to Miami, OK for Newell to fix some things
4. Mid October, 2010 - Drive coach from Miami, OK to Sacramento

So you can see, even though I have owned the coach for 1.5 years, I have only had possession of it for about 1.5 months. I added this preface so you can understand why I did not understand how the waste water system works.

Right after I arrived at Newell on Wednesday and was hooking up water to the coach, a helpful owner at Newell came over and pointed out that the manual valve to the waste tank was shut and explained that the valve allowed discharge of grey water only. I had only dumped the tank once (or so I thought) on my drive back to Indiana. It turns out I only dumped grey water that had backed up in the plumbing (I remember looking at the tank level readout after dumping and thinking that the sensors were misreading and were probably dirty). I only used the toilet a few times on the way back to Indiana so this problem was there when I picked up the coach in May, 2009.

Well, last night in Bakersfield I finally got the manual valve open using considerable effort and a pry bar (visions of the scene from the movie RV flooded my mind). Unfortunately, opening the valve did not result in a flood of > one-year-old doodie. I only got a trickle. I added water for additional head (increase from about 1/3 full to 3/4 full), still no effect.

Well, my plan of attack is as follows although I would be interested in suggestions from the group.
1. Chemical - I read on the Internet the report of one fellow who used a chemical called Rid-X to unclog a tank. I will use that chemical (or something better) to convert the mass from a solid to a goopy liquid (I am getting the dry heaves just writing this).
2. Pneumatic - Convert the driver side discharge from "dump on the road" to something more useful by adding a cam and groove fitting with a plug. Install a gland fitting on the plug so I can insert a rigid plastic tube into the tank with out leakage. Open the driver side valve to the waste tank, push in the plastic tube which will be connected to a compressed air source (maybe 30 psi) and try to fracture and liquify the mass with bubbles. Kind of like a poop jacuzzi.
3, Mechanical - using the same gland fitting, advance a metal rod with the tip bent 90 degrees. Hook the rod to an electric drill and spin to agitate the mass (I guess I don't want to get it too agitated, remember Steve McQueen in The Blob).

Suggestions? I will go out shopping for the chemical tomorrow.

[prairieschooner]

Tim,
Our Plumbing may be different since our coach is much older. As I understand you the plumbing is clogged between the holding tank and the discharge valve. I don't know about using a product like Rid-X or Yeast would help but it may although it would most likely take a long time for the little bugs to eat whatever is stuck in the line.
What about carefully using a snake? but watch out! once it is clear then out it will come! I may even consider using an adapter and city water. I have a cap with a hose connection and I would consider back-flushing it but...be careful city water is about 75-80 psi and I am not sure what would happen if left connected very long.
At any rate let us know what happens and if we should have a nick name for you.

[chockwald]

Once that stuff drys/hardens it is tough to get it out. I would think Steve's idea (a snake) makes the most sense, but carries the most personal risk for soiling one's self....especially since you have now increased the volume of liquid behind the plug. Have you talked to Newell about what their solution would be?

[prairieschooner]

I just had another thought but no sure how or where to pull it off. On boats we go to a pump-out station. There is a large diaphragm pump that creates a vacuum and pulls the waste out.
Here is a link to a product that I discussed last year during a previous discussion, the Sewer Solution; http://www.sewersolution.com/
This is a cap that would attach to the discharge fitting although you may also need an adapter. The cap has a water hose fitting and the jet spray is able to go into the tank or help discharge the waste. I would really think hard about this product to help with you dilemma and it would be much less than paying a shop to work on it, if it didn't work at least it would be a piece of gear. The people that purchase this at the RV park that we were at swore by it.

[rheavn]

Tim & Laura,
I purchased a coach that had been used very little for 5 years and a slow drain was a problem. Newell advised me to put in a quart of the standard black tank chemical available at Wal*Mart. They had me fill the water to 3/4 & drive with the solution & leave it in for 2 weeks. After 2 weeks I drained the solution and it drained normally & my indicator lights worked properly. My tank wasn't clogged totally, but it is an inexpensive fix to try. Since yours is clogged I would be inclined to double the chemical. A quart cost $8-$9.

[folivier]

How about calling out Roto-Rooter? They may enjoy doing this for you.

[express1]

Not sure the valve is open.... what about the curb side? sometimes the paddle inside the valve may stick and if you pry on the handle it could seperate......from paddle....:):o

[Richard and Rhonda]

First of all Matt is spot on. I also have pulled a handle loose from a paddle. How does one get the paddle out you say. I threaded a large bolt into the paddle and pulled it out that way. Can you snake a wire hanger into the tank? If not, you may not have actually opened the valve. Two screws and you can remove the top of the valve and see where the paddle is.

I would try plain old detergent first. Like dishwashing detergent. You need to hydrate and dissolve the clog.

How much water is in the black tank? Do you have a sight glass hose somewhere. Look on both sides of the tank.

Do you have access to a black water drain that slopes into the drain? if so put on your rubber boots and gloves and have at it.

[prairieschooner]

Be careful using a wire from a coat hanger it could do damage to the seals on the valve. That is why I suggested a snake or the water pressure. Richard could be right about the valve not being open though, if you had to pry it the handle could have come out of the gate (this is a Gate type Valve).
At any rate good luck, starting to sound more like RV. I would agree with your earlier post;
1st) Chemical..why not just may take a while.
2nd) Pressure.. OK I'd rather use Hydraulic than Pneumatic but the principal is the same, just air is more compressible making the pressure not dissipate as quickly as with water pressure.
3rd) The Snake.. you should only need on a couple of feet long. This method would require that you go somewhere that it wouldn't matter if you have a spill (visions of RV!). The last time I was in Elk Grove that would only be a few minutes drive but I am sure that has changed.
Good Luck

[HoosierDaddy]

Hi Tim,
I tend to choose the path of least resistance. I'd put Black tank chemical in and let-r-set for a month or so. At the 2 week mark I'd add a surfactant...(plain ol dish soap or liquid car wash soap). Drive it on a bumpy road to "shake it up"
If that doesnt work its gonna get messy. I'd open the drain valve and try to force a water hose in. Hopefully the force of the water will soften the goo as it goes until you reach the liquid. Once it starts to flow it will probably break loose completely.
Last resort would be to disassemble the drain valve where it mounts to the tank and "mechanically" remove the goo.
Re: plan #2 . Any "plan" that uses air pressure sounds very "entertaining" for those of us who are observing!!!! B-) Seriously if it's solid enough that it wont drain I dont think that air will liquify it.
The air actuated valve is helpful when it is hooked up to a sewer drain at a campsite. It is usually best to hook everything up and keep the valve closed. Once the tank is at least 3/4 full you can activate the valve and dump. This keeps the solids moving with the liquids as it drains.
Good Luck!

[Wally Arntzen]

It sounds to me like both of the gate valves are probably bad and need to be replaced. I did both of mine and now have a set up that can be removed with removing to stainless clamps that hold the entire unit together. If you have a problem with sewage messes get a plumber and it can be done in about 30 minutes.

Cut the line near the tank leaving enough room to reconnect the PVC pipe. There will be a mess but you can hose out the entire compartment to clean it up.
Trying to repair it without a mess is almost impossible. If you cut the line you can put a preasure washer tube into the tank to bust up any build up you may have on the bottom of the tank.
Chemicals are not going to correct the problem you have with the defective gate valves and I would try and drain what ever you can out of the cheater dump on the drivers side of the coach. The valve on that side is probably also in questionable conditiion and will need to be replaced.

It's like eaten barbeque ribs you gotta get into it and get a little messy and if you can't, call a plumber who will jump on it like a fly on a terd.
Good luck.

[Brad Townsend]

If there is a connector, (preferably clear) that would fit on the drain which you could attach a hose then you could see if the city pressure/hydraulic was breaking through then if it did you could then close the valve remove the hose setup attach the drain hose and open drain.
That is if the valve is not stuck shut.

Brad

[folivier]

I've used ice cubes to help break up solids. Just dump a few bags and then drive an hour or so, preferably on a bumpy road. The ice helps break things up.

[encantotom]

gee, we are sure full of good ideas. to me it comes down to how much of a rush are you in.

now for my two cents worth.

it does seem like the valves need to be replaced or repaired. if they are sticking partially shut all it will do is force the outcoming pooppressure to be higher when it does come out.

i would work on getting all the liquid out, fix the valves so i am sure they are working. then work on getting what you think is a bunch of solid poo dissolved. i replumbed my toilet and know my tanks pretty well. it is hard for me to imagine anyplace that there is a plug of poo THAT big that it would stop all the outcoming stuff from coming out. i really suspect the valves are stuck. if you do replumb the valve and put completely new ones in. make sure you do yourself a favor and do what wally says. his new setup is really nice as you can remove it all in a flash to repair or replace the valves in the future. now i know you have a slight problem in that all your plumbing is probably covered with an aluminum panel, wally and i dont have that.

btw, to clean my tank, i put a little water and i think 15 bags of ice down the toilet then went for a long drive.

also, i am sworn off of nasty chemicals in the tank after cleaning up a bottle of formaldahyde under the bathroom sink the first time after buying the coach 3 years ago. it just about killed us. i use bacteria now.

thats my two cents worth. but, please, when you ignore me like most people should, please video what you do with hydraulic and air pressure to compression explode the poo out. i really want to see it. please put a camera in the bathroom too so i can see the stream shoot up out of the toilet.

happy monday

tom

[folivier]

Hey Wally, how about some pictures of your valve setup?

[GORDON HUMMEL]

My coach a 1991, had a pump on the curb side that also drains the tank into a garden hose. Also there is an air actuated valve on mine on the curb side that may be operable. It drains out the bottom of the coach, but has the standard sewer connection you access from under the coach.

[Wally Arntzen]

I'll take some photo's tomorrow but somewone will have to coach me on how put into this program. I have not put any photos on this site although I do put them into adjuster programs that I work with.
I agree with Tom that cleaning the tank is a minor problem, you have valve problems. I did mine about four years ago and they are now starting to become tight and I will be replaceing them sometime this summer.

[prairieschooner]

Wally,
use the "go advanced" button next to "post quick reply" at the bottom here. this will take you to another page, then choose the "manage attachments" under "attach files". this will take you to another page and then you select "browse" then choose the files that you want to up-load, then "upload". You should see the file uploaded and you should be done.
good luck.

[77newell]

If there is no "water" coming out when all the appropriate valve handles are in the open position then either the valves are broken or there is a solid mass plugging the dump line. One way to find out which it is is to open the valves, ensuring that no liquid is appearing and run a snake gently up the open connection. If the valve is broken you will hear a plastic knock sound, if there is no sound when the snake stops or a soft sound then you know it's a poopy plug.

If it's the latter I think I might try getting a short piece of sewer hose attached to the outlet with it long enough to be turned up so its end is above the top of the tank. With the sewer hose horizontal run a snake in to just touch the plug and then raise the end of the hose above the level of the top of the tank and see if I can then get the snake to break through the plug. If it does break through you will feel liquid rising in the hose and you can quickly pull the snake and shut off the dump valve. Use a 5 gallon pail to collect the liquid while lowing the end of the hose. The next steps are obvious.

good luck
Jon
77 Newell, Civic toad

[chockwald]

Jon...a well thought out method of attack. I would just add that maybe a second set of hands should be available to quickly shut the valve so the person holding the snake, and short sewer hose doesn't accidently drop the wrong thing while attempting to close the valve....

[Wally Arntzen]

Attached are the photos of my gate valve system. I hope that it has worked.

[Wally Arntzen]

Hurray for me I got the photos on. If you notice the rubber hose at the outlet of the tank and the smaller one on the stack. I just loosen the stainless clamps and pull the entire unit of both gate valves out and service or repair them. If I have to replace the valves then I have make an entire new assembly which is very easy to do.
It works wonderful, never leaks and is fixable which I strive for.

Thanks guys and gals for all of your input on the site.

[rheavn]

Very nice Wally. I always appreciate someone's idea to make maintenance easier!

[jwe648]

You all seem to be having fun.. Don't forget to wear protection..
See photo for a demo...:)

[prestadude]

I received lots of good suggestions from the Forum but when I found out there was a local fellow that specializes in cleaning clogged tanks, I chickened out and hired him, and in retrospect I am glad I did. He showed up with a trailer full of equipment. He hooked up to the tank with a special fitting that allowed used of a high pressure spay hose.

http://www.newellclassic.com/forum/picture.php?albumid=10&pictureid=529

The manual valve was very hard to open completely and a blockage prevented the pressure hose from entering the tank. We used a pipe camera to inspect the blockage. Something solid with shrags hanging from it.

http://www.newellclassic.com/forum/picture.php?albumid=10&pictureid=533


We had to drill a hole in the ABS pipe to allow use of a prybar to get the blockage out of the way.

http://www.newellclassic.com/forum/picture.php?albumid=10&pictureid=531

Once things were flowing, the same access port was used for the high pressure hose.

http://www.newellclassic.com/forum/picture.php?albumid=10&pictureid=532

It took about 1 hour to get the tank cleaned and the black goop that came out reeked to high heaven. Now that the tank is clean, I will retrofit all the valves and plumbing.

[NewellCrazy]

What was the cost for this procedure? All he used was high water pressure?