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07-26-2010, 02:54 PM
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#1
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Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Huntington WV
Posts: 1,041
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Operating Numbers
This post is intended to provide some idea of relative operating numbers for coaches like mine. I know that when I first bought the coach, and even when I was looking at coaches, I had no idea what was normal and what was abnormal.
The caveat is that your numbers may be different.
The coach has a Series 60, 42.5 long, and weighs about 44000 loaded out.
The ambient temperature was between 92 and 102 degrees F.
I was towing a Subaru Outback.
I drove between 62 and 68 miles per hour usually.
The following numbers came from the VMS not the dash gauges.
Engine temp 194 to 204 Detroit says the thermostat should operate around 196.
Engine oil pressue 56 psi at speed, about 35 psi at idle
Emgine oil temp ran around 198.
Trans temp 205 to 218, I have always thought this was high, but Allison says it's fine.
Generator temp (with three basement airs going) runs about 190 to 200, but I do not know how accurate the guage is. The gennie temp will go down to 180 once parked.
I run tire pressures 120 front, 110 drive, and 80 tag. The front tires ran 135 to 140 degrees, checked with an infrared gun 2 inches in from the tire surface on the sidewall. The drives and tags also ran about 135. Interestingly enough the tires on the toad ran about 130.
The vms says I averaged 8.1 mpg for 1200 miles. I did not verify that with tank fillups.
Again, your numbers may be very different. I hope this helps someone in the future in checking their operating conditions.
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Richard Rhonda Ty and Alex Entrekin
1995 Newell # 390 DD Series 60, Allison World Trans
Subaru Outback toad
CoMotion Tandem
Often wrong, but seldom in doubt
Rhonda's chronicle https://wersquared.wordpress.com/
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06-18-2012, 05:59 PM
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#2
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Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: mesa, az
Posts: 1,375
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hi all,
getting ready to go on my first long trip. long meaning longer than 30 miles...
for the ddec4 12.7 l engine i have, are the operating conditions richard put above still the same?
what temp is too hot going uphill?
what is redline?
what boost should i be seeing?
can you guys post what you normally run for different specs?
thanks
tom
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06-18-2012, 09:21 PM
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#3
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Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 346
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Tom,
Here are some of the numbers while running in the very hot desert on the way to Tucson.
Observed some data whiletraveling west in very hot ambienttemperatures near 100F.
Oil Pressure steady at 47 psi
Coolant 201
Oil Temp 198
Transmission 207
My boost hits about 28 when pulling hard. Mileage normally between 8.5 and 9.0.
Russ
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06-18-2012, 09:39 PM
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#4
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Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: mesa, az
Posts: 1,375
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going up a steep grade does the engine coolant temp go up alot?
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06-25-2012, 03:04 AM
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#5
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Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 346
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I replied to Tom via email, but thought I would also post the results here. I drove from the Phoneix area north on I17 and did a couple fairly steep climbs in 3 digit outside temperatures. I soon arrived behind a slower tanker and chose not to pass as I believe the signage requested trucks to stay in the right lane, and in this case I was more a truck than a car. I had no problems at all with going up or coming down. The posted nunbers are from my VMSpc 20 minute maximum display which shows the maxium of the values reported over the last 20 minutes. Cynthia wrote down the numbers for me after we crested the big climb.
Here are the data points as maximums from the climb:
Coolant Temp 207
Transmission Temp 205
Oil Temp 202
Rpms – 2034
Russ
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06-25-2012, 05:11 PM
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#6
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Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Sam Carlos, Sonora, Mex.
Posts: 407
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Russ, I will be traveling the same road in about 10 days, and I am new to piloting a Newell. I am curious to know if you shifted down to get the 2034 Rpms, or did the transmission shift automatically. My previous coach had a Cat engine and I had to shift down to keep the Rpms up, the engine stayed cool on steep grades.
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06-25-2012, 06:07 PM
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#7
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Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 346
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Chester,
I don't have nearly the driving experience some other do on this forum, but I figure the Allison engineers have got it pretty well figured out, so I just let it decided when to shift. So far I am getting up and down quite nicely!
It's a beatiful drive and I hope you enjoy it.
Russ
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06-25-2012, 08:06 PM
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#8
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Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Thibodaux, LA
Posts: 1,221
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On my '93 with 4 speed allison I have to manually shift down. If I wait for the transmission to decide when it wants to shift my engine temp will climb close to 10 degrees before it shifts. I feel that's lugging the engine too much.
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06-25-2012, 10:59 PM
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#9
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Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 433
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I'm a type A personality. Not to discount the engineers design, I actively shift down as needed to keep my rpms as close to 2,000 rpms as possible on any steep grade. So far I have seen no significant temperature rise, but I am using the analog gauges. Any one who wants to test their ability and their coach's performance on steep grades try I-70 e/b going up to Denver. I am also not shy to gearing down on steep downward grades to save the brakes.
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Steve
Newell
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06-25-2012, 11:37 PM
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#10
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Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Thibodaux, LA
Posts: 1,221
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We drove I-70 in March to Denver in the jeep with snow on the road. Beautiful drive, but no, I wouldn't want to drive that in the coach!
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06-26-2012, 02:44 PM
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#11
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Member
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 39
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Wow, you guys get great fuel mileage. My Series-60 equipped '02 Wanderlodge gets 7 to 7.25 mpg after 110K miles. It weighs 48000 lbs and I pull a 4000 lb toad.
What final drive ratio do you guys run? My bus runs a 4.78:1.
My operating temps are similar to what everyone else here sees. The S60 thermostat is a Weir design. It starts to open at 190 deg F and is fully open at 205 deg F. My fan is hydraulically powered similar to your Newells. The fan comes on full speed at 200 deg F and stays on till the coolant temps drop to 190 deg F or for three minutes - this is all under the control of the DDEC IV ECM.
When climbing a grade under full power say in 100 deg F (OAT, Outside Air Temp), the coolant temps will ramp up from 190 deg to something less than 205 deg F as the thermostats fully open and the fan comes on full speed. At some OAT, say greater than 100 deg F, the tstats will be fully open and the fan will be on full speed and the coolant temps will be 205 deg F. As OATs further increase any remaining coolant system capacity will be depleted and the coolant temps will increase with increases in OAT. At 212 deg coolant temperature, DD says I'm entering the realm over overheating. As OAT's continue to increase, then at 220 deg F the DDEC reduces power.
The coolant temp sensor is located at the back of the cylinder head adjacent to cylinder number 6. The hottest part of the engine would be the upper cylinder liners the piston crowns and the upper combustion chambers. It's easy to see that while we may read 212 deg F at the coolant sensor, the coolant temp at the cylinder liners and the upper combustion chambers will be quite a bit higher. We can have the onset of nucleate boiling in these areas even if the coolant temp sensor is reading within spec, especially if the condition of the coolant system is slightly degraded; hence, DD's overheating spec of 212 deg F and de-power at 220 deg F. It's easy to see that at 220 deg F at the sensor you can have 230 deg F or more at the liner and combustion chambers. If there's a faulty radiator cap, or scaling, or if you're at altitude, then you can have boiling in these parts of the engine. So even though 50/50 ethylene glycol won't boil till 260 deg F or so (with a 10 psi cap), DD built in a safety margin for fouled coolant systems, out of spec coolant, or scaled engine coolant passages. Anyway that's my take on it. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
The way I operate my bus is I don't let it get above 205 deg F. The S60 will run at 205 deg F all day. I watch the coolant temps closely but I also pay attention to the exhaust gas temperatures. I don't let the EGT's get above 1000 deg F. I pretty much drive the bus according to the EGT's.
David Brady
'02 Blue Bird, Wanderlodge LXi
Series 60
NC
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06-26-2012, 03:30 PM
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#12
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Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Riverside, California
Posts: 1,543
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Same for me, I shift down manually...I don't wait for the Allison to shift down for same reason Forest gave. Since I started being pro-active in down shifting my temperatures do not climb as drastically as they used to....keeping RPM's around 2,000 on long climbs keeps temp around 200-205 depending on outside temps. The other thing I have become religious about is cleaning my radiator.
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06-26-2012, 11:29 PM
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#13
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Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 433
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David,
Although all Newells are subject to customizing, most of the Newells from late 90s into the 2000s are running the 4.30:1. My coach weighs 52,000 lbs, towing 3,200 lbs and I'm getting around 8 mpg.
The new coaches that weigh 63,000 lbs are running a 3.82:1
__________________
Steve
Newell
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06-27-2012, 02:09 AM
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#14
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Member
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 39
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Thanks Steve,
That'll make quite a difference in fuel mileage. For instance, at 65 mph my engine's spinning at 1630 rpm whereas yours would be spinning at (4.3/4.78)*1630 = 1466 rpm. That'll save some fuel. In fact, I'd bet that it'll save about the same percentage of fuel, so while I get 7.2 mpg at 65 mph on the flat and level with no wind, you should get 8.00 mpg. That's a savings of about a nickel per mile, so a $4000 final drive swap will take 80,000 miles to recover. That's at $3.50 per gallon. Or, I could just buy a Newell!
David Brady
'02 Blue Bird, Wanderlodge, LXi
Series 60
NC
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06-27-2012, 12:21 PM
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#15
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Member
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Birmingham, Alabama
Posts: 50
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Forest,
I am going to drive to Denver in the next month...and will want to go west after that. I remember making that drive in a rental car...and didn't like it. Would you recommend against it in the coach even in good weather? Is there a better place to go over the Rockies instead of Denver?
Cheers,
bill
__________________
Bill Johnson
Birmingham, AL
Coach #653 2003 powered by C12 Cat, BMW R1100GS, FJ Cruiser
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06-27-2012, 12:28 PM
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#16
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Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 433
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Bill,
I made the climb in my coach in late June of 2011 and had no problem at all. I kept my rpms up around 2,000 and kept a steady pace. The lowest speed I dropped to was between 40 and 45. My coach ran the very long grade at around 200 degrees according to the analog gauges.
__________________
Steve
Newell
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06-27-2012, 12:51 PM
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#17
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Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Thibodaux, LA
Posts: 1,221
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I-70 has some real hard climbs, up to 11000 feet if I remember correctly. Contact zcasa (David Zonker) he lives in Denver and when he had his coach he drove I-70 with his 8v92. You shouldn't have a problem but it will be a long slow drive. I would recommend downloading the Mountain Directory. It gives a good description of the climbs and descents. http://mountaindirectory.com/ebooks.html
I-70 has numerous pullouts for truckers to chain-up for snow so you should be able to cool down if needed. But I remember a lot of the towns along the highway just west of Denver had signs not allowing trucks into the towns. As long as your cooling system and brakes are in good condition it shouldn't be a problem. Just get in the right lane, go slow and enjoy the scenery, it's really beautiful.
Ron Skeen has driven that route before so I'd pm him also.
Good luck and enjoy your trip.
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06-27-2012, 03:08 PM
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#18
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Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Sam Carlos, Sonora, Mex.
Posts: 407
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I lived in Evergreen, Colorado, just off of I-70, for 12 years, driving RVs on I-70. The key is to not be concerned about speed, but to keep your RPMs up, and if your temp still comes up, pull over and set the engine on fast idle.
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06-27-2012, 05:29 PM
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#19
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Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 433
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For me the most difficult part of the drive is making sure you can get by slower vehicles. Once you lose your momentum it will be a loooooooooooooong, sloooooooooooooow ride.
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Steve
Newell
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