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06-28-2010, 08:00 PM
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#21
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Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: mesa, az
Posts: 1,375
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hi steve,
i totally rewired my inverter. it was really goofy the way it was done from the previous owner. so i did it totally correct and to handle the loads better and i added in the microwave.
it was jury rigged before.
so great point on making sure things are ok that have been done over the years since it left the factory.
tom
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06-28-2010, 09:09 PM
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#22
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Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Riverside, California
Posts: 1,543
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When my inverter is on every outlet in the coach works.
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06-29-2010, 01:56 AM
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#23
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Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Idyllwild, CA
Posts: 1,340
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Clarke, that is what we are discussing. That is not the correct way to have the Power Inverter Installed. Actually I would recommend Source Isolation with Polarity Indication if I was to Inspect that Coach during a Survey. I would bet that if you simply unplug the Shore Cord with your Power Inverter Turned On, all of the Circuits would become Hot. The Heart Power Inverter has a Relay that Automatically Switches the Power Inverter on when the Power Source is lost, these were normally sold as Computer Back Up Systems.
I would suggest that you choose what Circuits will be Powered by the Power Inverter then correct the wiring. When I was installing Power Inverters on Yachts, I would install a Separate Panel to Power only those Circuits.
Again this is why we have this Forum, I suggest that everyone check theses older Coaches and Correct them to meet Current Standards for the Safety of our loved ones, they may be the only ones to survive. Of course this may not be the case but it only takes a few minutes to prove or disprove any potential problems.
__________________
have Coach will Travel
Steve & Tricia
1982 Newell 38' (built before #1) 6V92 DD, 5 Speed Allison, 12.5 KW Kohler, Couch used to make into a Bed but I fixed it!
https://newellshowcase.com/thumbnails.php?album=214
2007 Yukon, 1981 CJ7 Laredo, 2002 Honda CRV, 1955 Thunderbird, 1952 Pontiac Sedan Delivery, 1952 Ford 8N, 1958 Airstream, 1959 Glasspar 16' Avalon, Cabin in the Woods........what will I work on next
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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06-29-2010, 03:47 AM
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#24
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Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Missoula, Montana and Montpelier, VT
Posts: 100
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Here are todays findings: Isolated all batteries and volt tested them with my meter. They read between 13.12 to 13.15. I retested with Hydrometer and I got 2 out of 4 discs floating. These batteries are not charging 100% for some reason. Tomorrow I am going to isolate one battery and charge it with an industrial smart charger to see how it performs all by itself. If it does not take a full charge then I think I can assume these new, 1 year old hardly used batteries are toast. These batteries are WERKER brand. Anyone ever heard of them? I ordered that meter from West Marine. When it gets here I will test the output of the charger. I wish I knew more than I do as it feels frustrating to have some knowledge and not enough to fix the problem so I thank you all for your knowledge. The next big step is to have the batteries load tested...and to monitor the charger to see if it kicks on under the load test. When I installed the new charger I just cut the wires off the old charger and connected them to the new one and added an additional ground wire..probably a 10 gauge insulated wire. Could this ground wire be an a culprit here? What if the second ground wire is not actually grounded? Jennifer
__________________
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]Jennifer Stackpole
1987 Newell, 40ft #143
DD 8V92 Silver
2010 Cannondale Tandem
No Name Tandem Mtn Bike
1973 Triumph GT6
2012 AWD 4-door Mini-Cooper
3 Ford Trucks
Just another fanatical motorhead
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06-29-2010, 01:19 PM
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#25
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Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Huntington WV
Posts: 1,041
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Jennifer,
Why are you saying the batts are not fully charged? Are you basing that on the hydrometer or the voltage?
The chart I sent you a link to indicates to me that the batts are charged. I would go get another hydrometer of a different style and see if it reads the same as your disc one.
Steve and Tom are making excellent points for the rest of us following this thread. I have also run into some potentially dangerous coach wiring strategies when I have worked on a couple of Newells that belonged to others. It behooves all of us to verify what we have. Steve has pointed out one of the most basic principles, to verify that you do not have power when you disconnect the breakers.
Steve, do you have good reference materials for what is electrical code on RV's or boats?
__________________
Richard Rhonda Ty and Alex Entrekin
1995 Newell # 390 DD Series 60, Allison World Trans
Subaru Outback toad
CoMotion Tandem
Often wrong, but seldom in doubt
Rhonda's chronicle https://wersquared.wordpress.com/
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06-29-2010, 01:39 PM
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#26
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Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: mesa, az
Posts: 1,375
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just my 2 cents worth, but i would not load test the batteries while still hooked up and especially with the charger on.
i would be surprised if any place would do it that way.
tom
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06-29-2010, 09:48 PM
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#27
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Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Missoula, Montana and Montpelier, VT
Posts: 100
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I have charged the batteries today each individually. They are taking a charge. After being fully charged the new hydrometer I bought which is the nicest one out of the 3 that I have, read that the batteries are marginal at best and not 100%. Tomorrow the batteries are being load tested individually and not while hooked into the coach. There must be a master relay or something that is malfunctioning because I don't think the batteries are getting the signal to charge from the alternator or the charger. The merge switch is in the middle position which is where I always leave it. Tomorrow is a new day. Jennifer
__________________
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]Jennifer Stackpole
1987 Newell, 40ft #143
DD 8V92 Silver
2010 Cannondale Tandem
No Name Tandem Mtn Bike
1973 Triumph GT6
2012 AWD 4-door Mini-Cooper
3 Ford Trucks
Just another fanatical motorhead
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06-30-2010, 03:09 AM
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#28
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Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Idyllwild, CA
Posts: 1,340
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Jennifer,
I agree with Tom and Richard here, take the Coach to a shop that will do a load test on all Batteries or have them look at your Hydrometer. 13.2 Volts DC seems like the DC Batteries are Fully Charged.
Richard,
Yes, I am a Member of ABYC (American Boat and Yacht Council) and I do have a copy of the Current Recommended Standards. I use these Standards every day that I work, I use the current ABYC, USCG (United States Coast Guard) and NFPA (National Fore Protection Association) Standards in my inspections of Yachts as required by all Underwriters. These Standards are what is accepted as the Standards of the Industry. The Manual is about 2" thick and covers all of the aspects of Yachts, Engine Installations, Tankage - Fuels and Water, Heaters, Electrical, etc. If you have a question I would be glad to look it up but Source Isolation is a Basic Standard, intermingling of Power Sources can be very Dangerous. Our '82 has the Relays that perform this duty and you may remember me repairing these shortly after I bought our Prairie Schooner.
__________________
have Coach will Travel
Steve & Tricia
1982 Newell 38' (built before #1) 6V92 DD, 5 Speed Allison, 12.5 KW Kohler, Couch used to make into a Bed but I fixed it!
https://newellshowcase.com/thumbnails.php?album=214
2007 Yukon, 1981 CJ7 Laredo, 2002 Honda CRV, 1955 Thunderbird, 1952 Pontiac Sedan Delivery, 1952 Ford 8N, 1958 Airstream, 1959 Glasspar 16' Avalon, Cabin in the Woods........what will I work on next
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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06-30-2010, 11:35 PM
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#29
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Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Missoula, Montana and Montpelier, VT
Posts: 100
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Today the batteries were load tested with a Snap-On tester not a carbon pile(sp?) All but one battery tested "Bad Battery." Tomorrow I am taking the coach to Western Sates Cat as they want to charge them and load test them with a carbon pile Load tester since that is where I bought the batteries. The batteries are less than 1 year old. All indications at this point, are leading to bad batteries. We will see what they say on Friday when I pick up the coach.
__________________
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]Jennifer Stackpole
1987 Newell, 40ft #143
DD 8V92 Silver
2010 Cannondale Tandem
No Name Tandem Mtn Bike
1973 Triumph GT6
2012 AWD 4-door Mini-Cooper
3 Ford Trucks
Just another fanatical motorhead
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07-01-2010, 02:56 AM
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#30
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Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Idyllwild, CA
Posts: 1,340
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mark one for a Hydrometer!
__________________
have Coach will Travel
Steve & Tricia
1982 Newell 38' (built before #1) 6V92 DD, 5 Speed Allison, 12.5 KW Kohler, Couch used to make into a Bed but I fixed it!
https://newellshowcase.com/thumbnails.php?album=214
2007 Yukon, 1981 CJ7 Laredo, 2002 Honda CRV, 1955 Thunderbird, 1952 Pontiac Sedan Delivery, 1952 Ford 8N, 1958 Airstream, 1959 Glasspar 16' Avalon, Cabin in the Woods........what will I work on next
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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07-01-2010, 03:36 AM
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#31
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Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Thibodaux, LA
Posts: 1,221
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Should I drill a hole in my AGM's so I can use a hydrometer?
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07-01-2010, 01:37 PM
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#32
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Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Idyllwild, CA
Posts: 1,340
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good one Forest!
I have an inexpensive Load Tester that does a good job of testing Flooded Lead Acid Batteries, I think that I bought mine about 25-30 years ago. Harbor Freight sells one similar to mine, it uses a Heater Element to Simulate a Load;
http://www.harborfreight.com/100-amp...ter-90636.html
still a good shop that sells Batteries has a much different way to test the Batteries.
Looks like a Tester that will properly test an AGM Battery runs between about $100 to $700. Maybe a drill isn't such a bad idea?
I had a second though for Jennifer. If your Batteries have gone bad in just one year there is a problem somewhere. Extreme Temperatures could effect the lifespan of a DC Battery but you may want to have that shop test the Charging Systems. If the Charging Voltages aren't matched to the type of Battery this could effect the Lifespan. When you have them check the Shore Power Charging System (typical Battery Charger, Charging Function of the Power Inverter) don't forget to have the Alternator checked as well.
__________________
have Coach will Travel
Steve & Tricia
1982 Newell 38' (built before #1) 6V92 DD, 5 Speed Allison, 12.5 KW Kohler, Couch used to make into a Bed but I fixed it!
https://newellshowcase.com/thumbnails.php?album=214
2007 Yukon, 1981 CJ7 Laredo, 2002 Honda CRV, 1955 Thunderbird, 1952 Pontiac Sedan Delivery, 1952 Ford 8N, 1958 Airstream, 1959 Glasspar 16' Avalon, Cabin in the Woods........what will I work on next
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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07-05-2010, 04:17 AM
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#33
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Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Missoula, Montana and Montpelier, VT
Posts: 100
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The latest update as of Friday the 1st is this: Western States Cat removed each battery and trickle charged each one with 2 amps until charged. They load tested them and all were barely marginal to bad. They did not get consistent readings on each battery. Every repeat test gave them different information but no battery tested better than marginal. They also checked the alternator output as well as the battery charger output and all was good with both. They called Batteries Plus which is where they got the batteries from. Batteries Plus said that with that big of a battery they have to be load tested a different way. It involves a test over time under load with a specific drop in voltage over a specific period of time which takes hours on each battery. That test will happen on Tuesday. 3 tests so far, all say bad batteries. I doubt Batteries Plus will have any different results. Western States Cat has outstanding customer service and is completely standing by me and with me on this. I'll keep you all posted. I think when the batteries were new less than a year ago, they were not totally full of acid, which is why I had to put over 3 gallons of distilled water in them early spring. Everyone including me, failed to remove those covers when they were first put in my coach to check acid levels. We all assumed they were full and ready to go. With the minimal usage(only charging all winter) they were ruined. This is my theory. Jennifer
__________________
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]Jennifer Stackpole
1987 Newell, 40ft #143
DD 8V92 Silver
2010 Cannondale Tandem
No Name Tandem Mtn Bike
1973 Triumph GT6
2012 AWD 4-door Mini-Cooper
3 Ford Trucks
Just another fanatical motorhead
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07-05-2010, 01:56 PM
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#34
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Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 279
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Jennifer,
Your theory sounds good. I don't know much about this stuff, but I did top off my batteries every month with distilled water. I got 7 years out of them and Newell Service says that is the absolute most life that they had heard of from these kinds of batteries. They told me that they recommend replacement no longer than 3 1/2 years or so. Sounds like you will, in all likelihood, get new batteries and that you will be good to go for years to come, with routine maintenance on the water levels. Good luck tomorrow. It will feel good to get to the bottom of this challenge.
David
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07-18-2010, 02:29 PM
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#35
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Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Missoula, Montana and Montpelier, VT
Posts: 100
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Here are the final results to the Batteries that wouldn't take a full charge. Batteries Plus says they're fine. End of Story.
__________________
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]Jennifer Stackpole
1987 Newell, 40ft #143
DD 8V92 Silver
2010 Cannondale Tandem
No Name Tandem Mtn Bike
1973 Triumph GT6
2012 AWD 4-door Mini-Cooper
3 Ford Trucks
Just another fanatical motorhead
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07-19-2010, 01:20 AM
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#36
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Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Idyllwild, CA
Posts: 1,340
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something sounds wrong here.
Your earlier post states that the supplier of the batteries could not get a good reading and you could not get a good reading. Have you tried to get a reading since the batteries were returned? or could you get the supplier to test them again and make sure that everyone puts something in writing.
If the batteries are fine then something should have been wrong with the charging system. If there is nothing wrong with the charging system then...
I suggest that you have another source evaluate the batteries and charging system as a second opinion, this shouldn't take too long and should really help to explain this.
but hey this is me and I don't like throwing $$$$ away.
Good Luck.
__________________
have Coach will Travel
Steve & Tricia
1982 Newell 38' (built before #1) 6V92 DD, 5 Speed Allison, 12.5 KW Kohler, Couch used to make into a Bed but I fixed it!
https://newellshowcase.com/thumbnails.php?album=214
2007 Yukon, 1981 CJ7 Laredo, 2002 Honda CRV, 1955 Thunderbird, 1952 Pontiac Sedan Delivery, 1952 Ford 8N, 1958 Airstream, 1959 Glasspar 16' Avalon, Cabin in the Woods........what will I work on next
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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07-19-2010, 01:57 PM
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#37
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Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Missoula, Montana and Montpelier, VT
Posts: 100
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I agree Steve. I tested them, Western States Cat tested them and they all tested marginal to bad. Batteries Plus tested them which is where Western States got them, and they say they are fine. They load test them with a 60 watt bulb until discharged, then recharge them at 2 volts. These are really big batteries and apparently that is how to load test these as well as charge them. I'm wondering if these batteries are the right sort of batteries to have in my coach. They are a match to what I replaced them with. The charging system all checks out good. Western States rechecked them and left the coach lights on as well as the fridge and ice maker for 8 hours. The gauge on the panel was reading 12.3 at the end of the 8 hours and the reading a the batteries read, 12.6. Perhaps it is a gauge accuracy issue. I'm using the coach this weekend and I will check it out again.
__________________
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]Jennifer Stackpole
1987 Newell, 40ft #143
DD 8V92 Silver
2010 Cannondale Tandem
No Name Tandem Mtn Bike
1973 Triumph GT6
2012 AWD 4-door Mini-Cooper
3 Ford Trucks
Just another fanatical motorhead
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07-19-2010, 02:52 PM
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#38
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Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Idyllwild, CA
Posts: 1,340
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good luck I am sure that you are a bit frustrated.
__________________
have Coach will Travel
Steve & Tricia
1982 Newell 38' (built before #1) 6V92 DD, 5 Speed Allison, 12.5 KW Kohler, Couch used to make into a Bed but I fixed it!
https://newellshowcase.com/thumbnails.php?album=214
2007 Yukon, 1981 CJ7 Laredo, 2002 Honda CRV, 1955 Thunderbird, 1952 Pontiac Sedan Delivery, 1952 Ford 8N, 1958 Airstream, 1959 Glasspar 16' Avalon, Cabin in the Woods........what will I work on next
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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07-19-2010, 03:19 PM
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#39
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Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Huntington WV
Posts: 1,041
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Jen,
What kind of batteries are they? Standard wet cell cranking batteries, wet cell deep cycle batteries, gel batteries, marine batteries, or AGM deep cycle batteries?
Since this is such a long thread, can you remind us old geezers, what data you have that says they are bad? Hydrometer, short life, voltage on batteries, charger never turns off?
Steve,
I thought you would take some delight in my hydrometer use yesterday. I lost one of the batteries in my house bank. And yes I did use a 4 buck hydrometer to confirm it had two bad cells.
__________________
Richard Rhonda Ty and Alex Entrekin
1995 Newell # 390 DD Series 60, Allison World Trans
Subaru Outback toad
CoMotion Tandem
Often wrong, but seldom in doubt
Rhonda's chronicle https://wersquared.wordpress.com/
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07-19-2010, 03:31 PM
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#40
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Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Idyllwild, CA
Posts: 1,340
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just a little Richard.
Jennifer said that she had used a hydrometer and referred to the lead plates being exposed earlier in this post so it leads me to believe that she has Flooded Lead Acid DC Batteries.
If the plates were exposed after a long period of charging they could have been sent through a conditioning charge to help remove any sulfate on the plates to help restore the batteries. I know that Lifeline recommends this for their AGM batteries on a yearly basis. My Heart Power Inverter has this function so I would expect most of the newer chargers to have it as well.
All we can do is speculate although I would recommend that she finds the answer before replacing the batteries.
__________________
__________________
have Coach will Travel
Steve & Tricia
1982 Newell 38' (built before #1) 6V92 DD, 5 Speed Allison, 12.5 KW Kohler, Couch used to make into a Bed but I fixed it!
https://newellshowcase.com/thumbnails.php?album=214
2007 Yukon, 1981 CJ7 Laredo, 2002 Honda CRV, 1955 Thunderbird, 1952 Pontiac Sedan Delivery, 1952 Ford 8N, 1958 Airstream, 1959 Glasspar 16' Avalon, Cabin in the Woods........what will I work on next
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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