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Old 06-21-2010, 04:12 AM   #1
jmacstack
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Default Batteries not Charging all the way

Jennifer here, once again,
While I was out this weekend, I was unable to plug in,(more on that in a second) and had to run my generator, (20KW.) I had to run it a lot of hours a day to get a mere 12.4 volts. An hour later my gauge on the interior panel was back to 12 volts. When the generator was running the gauge was reading 13.4. I drove 3.5 hours each way to my destination and upon arrival, the gauge was at also at 12.4. (I drove without the generator running.) While parked and with the generator was running I was pulling 20+amps and I assume it was because the battery charger was running. When the generator was not running I was drawing about a half to 1 amp on both legs. The batteries are new 1 year ago. The battery charger is new and has maybe 10 hours on it. It is a "smart" charger (progressive dynamics I think.) I spent the entire weekend watching the gauge and stressing that the batteries were going to dip below 12. I'm wondering if it is the gauge or if there was something else happening. Tomorrow I am going to plug into 50 amps for the day and see what happens.

Separate issue perhaps...
I tried to plug in at the fairgrounds I was camped at and they only had 20 amp breakers. This fairground panel has 200 amps servicing it. There were probably 30 pedestals in a row and I was near the end of the line. No one else was plugged into these hook-ups. The breaker in the fairgrounds panel kept tripping. I assumed that it was because the 20 amp was on such a long run, there was too much resistance and the breaker couldn't handle it. I even turned off every breaker in the panel hoping that might solve the issue...no luck. I also changed to a different outlet and that didn't help. Perhaps this is related to my charging issue. I have had to plug into 20 amps recently and all went well. According to the electrical panel at the fairgrounds, each pedestal had its own breaker. When I tripped the breaker it would last for anywhere from 10 minutes to 20 minutes before it tripped. Again, I would draw the 20+amps and again, figured it was the charger. Am I right to think the breaker was tripping due to the long run or could it be something else? Are these issues related? Any clues as to who is the best person to help me figure this out if I can't? I know there probably a lot of questions to get to the bottom of this and perhaps a phone call might be better. Electrical issues can be a bit of a nightmare. Perplexed, Jennifer
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Old 06-22-2010, 03:45 AM   #2
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Have you checked the water level in the batteries.......I'm assuming they are "wet" batteries?
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Old 06-22-2010, 11:22 AM   #3
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Clarke's idea is a good starting place. If you have lost much of the water in a cell or battery it could cause the charger to run like crazy trying to recharge it. A dead cell in one battery could also cause an extra draw on your charger. After checking the level of the water in each cell, refilling any that are low, recharge the batteries, then disconnect the batteries one at a time and measure their no low voltage. If one is significantly lower than the others, you may have a short or dead cell in that battery. Sometimes you can restore a battery if the plates have dried out but it will take patience recharging that one battery by itself for an extended time or if your charge supports equalization, that can sometimes bring back a dying battery.
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Old 06-22-2010, 02:30 PM   #4
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It most likely isn't your Batteries but you should start there, sounds like your Batteries were Charged at less than 75%. When troubleshooting I always start at one end, then the other end, then cut the circuit in half, then in half again, etc.
12.4 is very low Voltage for a 12 Volts DC System. If you have Wet Acid Batteries they should be Charged at 14.4 Volts DC, follow this link for more;
http://www.westmarine.com/webapp/wcs...ttery-Charging

I would start by checking all of the Battery, Battery Switch and other Connections and making sure that the Cables are tight at every connection.
Now let's look at your Charging System with the Alternator. I suggest that you isolate the Engine Batteries (shut down the House Battery Switch and Battery Merge for this test). I would use a Digital Volt Meter and test the Voltage at the Alternator and then the Batteries. You should see 14.4 Volts DC when the Alternator is Fully Charging.
Not being sure about the Shore Charging System it is hard to advise. I like being able to use the Charging Function of our Heart Inverter (bought by Xantrex). It has a 100 Amp DC Output making getting to about 90% fairly fast, about an hour or less when we Dry-Camp, rule of thumb- use 50% of the Battery Capacity. Now if you have 240 Amp Hour Battery Bank you should only use about 120 Amps. If you have a 20 Amp Battery Charger it will take at least 6 hours to get the Batteries up to 90% Capacity.

*The Charging Systems for our House and Engine Batteries are completely Separate, and this is by my design. My Battery Merge Switch only allows the Engine System to Charge the House System if I Manually Select it to do that. I personally like to have my Charging Systems Separate but it isn't for everyone.
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Old 06-22-2010, 03:02 PM   #5
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a few rambling thoughts.

the question about the power at the fairgrounds......i would be very surprised that the problem was a result of a lengthy run. what a lengthy run does is lower the voltage and is called a voltage drop. shutting off the other breakers would not change anything. our coaches should run on 104-132v. i have the progressive industries power management system on my coach and that is the range of voltage it will "allow" into the coach before shutting it off. most 120v AC devices have a real wide tolerance of voltage operation just for the reason of the many variables that influence voltage in a residence.

what electricians do when wiring up long runs is to do a voltage drop calculation, or most do a rule of thumb of upping the wire size one size for each 100-200 feet. i said rule of thumb because it makes a difference of what starting voltage and what type of wire etc. standard 20a wiring is #12 wire. the indicators of a long run without increasing the wire size is lower voltage and the problem then should have been in your coach. of course, anything is possible.

given that you said it would trip after 10-20 minutes raises a few thoughts from my feeble mind. particularly since you said it didnt matter what pedestal you used at the fairgrounds. it is always a possiblity that the breakers were weak at the fairgrounds, but given that you tried several, that seems to be a low chance.

it seems more likely to me that something in your coach was kicking on periodically that was in conjunction with the other things your were using caused the coach to be drawing 20 amps or more, causing the 20a pedestal breaker to blow. the biggest culprits for current surges are anything with a motor. motors have typically 1.5-2.5x surges at startup (called LRA, locked rotor amps), that can cause amperage spikes. in particular, any type of compressor is the biggest culprit, like a fridge, air con, icemaker, etc. however any electric motor surges.

or anything that will cycle, like chargers, hot water heaters, etc.

all of this is only to do with the pedestal breaker popping. like is said, since there are so many variables, you could have found the perfect combination of things that made it unique to that fairgrounds, which is easy enough to tell if you plug in at another place and it works.

now a few comments about your batteries.

michael and clarke and steve had great comments. having made many battery mistakes in the past here is how i would start, and take it with a grain of salt and merge it with the other folk's comments. i would not rely on the meters in the coach for troubleshooting. get a handheld volt ohmeter if you do not have one. any cheap ol one will work. i have expensive ones and cheap ones. the cheap ones are fine for this. 3 bucks at harborfreight. or spend 20-250 bucks for a radioshack or fluke. start cheap unless you are going to use it a ton.

1. if the batteries have caps you can check the water on do so and add distilled water as necessary. as everyone knows, charging batteries with the plates exposed kills them quickly.

2. then charge them overnite. you can check the "smart charger" by monitoring the voltage at the batteries with a voltmeter. it will start out and progress through different voltages immediately after turning it on. you can see those voltages at the batteries with a voltmeter. get your manual out for your charger and it should tell you the times and voltages. that wasy you can make sure the charge is working right. most likely is, but it will help eliminate things. as elmination is the name of the game.

3. isolate the batteries as michael said and check voltages. in this case, make sure to isolate the batteries or you will be reading combined voltages. like was said before, if one battery is alot different than the other one, suspect it has a dead or shorted cell. these big ol 8D batteries are heavy, so it might be easier to drive the coach to a battery shop to have it load tested (with the batteries disconnected you are checking). btw, i bought my engine batteries at a sams club and they had a load tester capable of 8D batteries. i took the batteries there, but the batteries are a mere fraction of weight compared to me.....a bad cable connection can cause lots of problems. as part of isolating the batteries to test them, i would completely clean each cable end and battery lug or terminal. a bad ground or connection can cause lots of wierd problems.

4. on all of the coaches i have seen of our vintage, there is a huge fusible link on each battery bank. on mine, i thought my batteries for my starting side were bad, and it ended up that the fuse was bad. on mine and most others, it is on the ground and sits on top of the battery. it is about an 1.25" in diameter with flat connection lugs on each side of the cylinder. i would check that as well. isolate it and just check across with an ohmeter.

5. remember the voltmeters on your dash and overhead will display what is on the circuit. what i mean by that is if you are driving and your alternator is putting out 13.4v, that is what will be on the meter as long as the alternator can keep up with the demand. that is even if your batteries are at 12v, the meter will show what is coming out of the alternator within reason. same for being parked and engine off and charger on. with the charger off, engine off, then it will read the combined battery voltage and will go down as the batteries are drawn down.

6. after all of this, hopefully you found something simple. if not, and the batteries are good, the charger is good, the fuse is good etc.

7. if everything still checks out, then you have to start tracing from a good point forward a piece at a time. from the batteries up is where i would likely start.

of course, as usual like i said before, use what works for you.

and someone check my thoughts as i started this earlier than i like to get up.

later

tom
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Old 06-26-2010, 02:54 PM   #6
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what have you found?
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Old 06-26-2010, 03:08 PM   #7
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When I left the coach on Sunday, I shut off all power to coach. Yesterday(Friday) when I checked my batteries, they were only 25% charged according to my battery tester(floating disc) this is after I drove for 3 hours on Sunday.

All cells full. All cables tight and clean. I am now plugged into 50 amps and have been for the last 15 hours. I will go and check charge status today. Charger is operating and have not checked output yet. I will know more today.
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Old 06-27-2010, 12:37 AM   #8
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so the batteries were totally charged when you dropped it off on sunday? what do you mean by shutting off all power to the coach? do you mean you used both battery bank shutoff switches in the back? or do you just mean that you turned everything off you know of inside?

if there is a current draw, it can draw the batteries down and you not even know it.

for example an 8d agm lifeline battery has 255 amp hours 475 min at 25a 825 min at 15a 1670 min at 8a

double that for two fully charged batteries.

just for funs sake....lets say you had left on 4 of the lower bay lights.

they draw i would guess about 2amps each for a total of 8amp draw.

if your batteries were at 25%, then 1670x2=3340x.75=2227minutes at 8amps. that is about 2 days of draw.

so if you were getting from sunday to friday (5 days) to get to 25%, then you are drawing 60x25x5=7500 minutes or using the data above, you were drawing about 3amps for 5 days to get 2 8d batteries down to 25%. that is not very much. like a couple of lights on somewhere you dont know about.

i did some estimation, but in general it is right.

i know it doesnt seem like it takes much to discharge the batteries and that is why if you run the icemaker on the inverter it will run my batteries down overnite.

and why the newer coaches have six 8D batteries just for the coach side to run the all electric coach when dry camping. that big electric fridge really draws the amps in DC when inverting to AC.

so, not saying this is the case for you, but an illustration of how quickly the coach batteries can run down if there are some devices of any kind left on.

later

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Old 06-27-2010, 03:08 PM   #9
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Tom. I shut down both battery bank main shutoff switches. I had driven the coach for 3.5 hours + to get home. Shut off both mains when I got here. Should the batteries have been fully charged after driving 3.5+ hours? Checked batteries 5 days later to start the trouble shooting process on Friday and they were at 25%. Will check them today. They have been charging for 2 days. I have lead acid batteries. Puzzling. Jennifer
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Old 06-27-2010, 03:24 PM   #10
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Jennifer,
It appears that something is drawing down the Batteries. Since you Shut down the Battery Switches and they still went down there could be something wired direct that is drawing power or simply a bad battery.
Sounded like you used a Hydrometer to test the Batteries, do you also have a Digital Volt Meter?
I would start with a simply approach. Charge the Batteries to a Full Charge with the Shore Battery Charger and then measure the Voltage and Specific Gravity. Physically disconnect and isolate all of the Batteries with the Ground Cables (much safer to keep from arc welding with the wrench). Now wait for a day or two and measure the Voltage and Specific Gravity again, the Voltage would signify a problem while the Hydrometer would describe the problem. Now you should know if the Batteries are in good condition or if something has been wired to bypass the Battery Switches.
If all is well there is a Clamp on DC Amp Meter that could help with trouble shooting a power drain. I want one but haven't had to buy one yet, a friend loaned me his and they are great. Here is a link;
http://www.westmarine.com/webapp/wcs...classNum=10600
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Old 06-27-2010, 03:27 PM   #11
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hi,

do you have the merge switch on? are we only talking about the coach batteries or the starting batteries or both?

it is hard to tel on how long it takes to charge a battery while driving. each battery has what is called an "acceptance rate", based on the total amp hours of the battery bank, the degree to which it is discharged and the type of battery it is. AGM's have a higher acceptance rate than wet cells.

having said all that and assumming you have a 160amp alternator or so, and you drove at day, they likely should have charged in 3-4 hours.

many folks run their genny's for a few hours each day to top off the coach charge when dry camping.

it is a simple thing, just hard to find.

1. a bad battery or
2. a bad connection or
3. a steady current draw you dont know about
4. or a bad charger. it would have to be both the charger and the alternator.

or a combination of the above.

i welcome anyone else to add in. i could be wrong about any of this....

tom
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Old 06-27-2010, 04:24 PM   #12
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Hi Jennifer,

Are you using a hydrometer to determine level of charge or using the voltage?

I know all "technical" source books say to use a hydrometer. However, some of them are hard to properly read, and none of the cheaper ones are calibrated. They are extremely useful for locating a bad cell in a wet battery though.

What are the voltages when you say the batts are 25 and 75 percent charged?
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Old 06-28-2010, 01:58 AM   #13
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Sorry Richard but that isn't exactly correct and I beg to differ. If you use the same Hydrometer between all of the Battery Cells then even if it is an Inexpensive Tool it would at least someone would be able to be compare each Battery Cell and then compare all to help identify a bad Cell, not all tools need to be calibrated to be of value.
I still prefer a Volt Meter butt I believe that even an inexpensive hydrometer would be very valuable in trouble shooting this problem.
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Old 06-28-2010, 02:34 AM   #14
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Today I went to the coach to further my investigation. I noticed the building was hot....it had been closed up all weekend. Then I noticed the engine compartment was hot...upon touching the engine it too was hot! I thought about it for a second and went inside to check the engine heater...it was running and probably has been all through the weekend I was out camping trying to not blow breakers at the fairgrounds. Time to put a piece of tape over that switch..it's by the bed in the back among a row of other switches...easy to hit by mistake. Now I know why I was blowing breakers at the fairgrounds. There was too much draw and every time the fridge kicked in it was to much for the breaker to handle.

I checked the batteries. I am still only floating 1 disc with my hydrometer. These are brand new batteries....or so they said. Now I'm feeling skeptical. I turned off the big inverter, engine heater switch is off. Tomorrow I will check the batteries with my volt meter and report back. The combined voltage of the batteries today was 13.22. I did not isolate the batteries and will do so tomorrow. Could that big 50amp(I think) flat fuse that the positive side of the batteries is connected to be bad? I can't remember what that flat fuse is called..is it the fusible link? I have an extra one. I will check it for continuity tomorrow. There is some corrosion on it. So that is the update..more tomorrow. Thanks you all for all your input, it is really helpful. Jennifer
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Old 06-28-2010, 05:11 AM   #15
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i figured there was something running that was drawing the batteries down.

the fuse i was referring to looks like this. it is probably 3 inches long.


SHAWMUT A3T600 600 AMP 300 VOL. A3T 600 FUSE CLASS T

this is the replacement i bought. i got a couple of them on ebay for 45 dollars or so apiece. closer to a hundred if you buy them retail.

tom
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Old 06-28-2010, 01:29 PM   #16
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"They are extremely useful for locating a bad cell in a wet battery though."

Steve, I think you and I said the same thing. Even with the worst calibration, they can point out differences between cells. I stick by my statement that an uncalibrated one is marginally useful for determing % charge of a battery based upon the specific gravity. I can send you the three different ones I have purchased that give three totally different readings. Cept, they are not worth the cost of shipping them to you.

I snagged a typical chart off the net for 12v batteries. http://www.solar4power.com/solar-power-battery.html

It would seem to indicate if you are reading 13.22 then the batteries are charged.
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Old 06-28-2010, 01:32 PM   #17
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This has me wondering if the Inverter could have been left on allowing the Engine Block Heater to draw your Batteries down.
Anyway 13.2 Volts DC would signify a Charged 12 Volt Battery so at least the Charging System is functioning as long as that Voltage was taken with the Charger turned Off.
Our Engine Block Heater has a Light at the Switch inside, does yours? if not it would be a nice addition. Our AC Generator also has a Light near the Switch inside. I always unplug the Block Heater (at the Engine Compartment) because one of Dogs, Bonnie, likes to lay back there and frequently has turned the switch on.
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Old 06-28-2010, 03:21 PM   #18
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hi steve, you said something that has me wondering. my block heater is not hooked up to my inverter. is yours?

if it was her block heater, then it would have to be 110v then?

thanks

tom
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Old 06-28-2010, 03:28 PM   #19
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Just a thought, but could that switch be a water tank heater instead? That could be 12volt.
Good luck.
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Old 06-28-2010, 07:45 PM   #20
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Tom,
I am not so sure that the Heart Inverter was original equipment for our '82. When we got the '82 the Power Inverter had been wired to the Switch Panel and all was able to be used, this is the easiest way to install one. Here I am trying to work on the AC Electrical System and it was still hot after I shut down the Main Circuit Breaker? and still hot after the Power Cord was removed?? I found the problem to be the way the Power Inverter was wired. This was corrected right away but there is no telling what a PO may have done.
I added a Selector Switch (Marine Grade of course) to the AC Switch Panel. Only the two Televisions and the Microwave Oven can be powered with the Heart Power Inverter. By the way we also have a Powerline Inverter (the kind that the Truckers use) that powers up our Ice-maker. I like how the original owner was thinking, cocktails on time even after driving all day!
By the way guys this is something that we all should check on our older coaches. I spent a few days bringing my AC and DC Electrical Systems back as close as I could to what should be original. I have written notes and drawn what I needed so that I can make repairs in the future.
*I am at a big disadvantage since Newell doesn't have records for my '82 so if there is someone out there with an Electrical Schematic for a '82 please copy it and I'll pay for the cost and mailing.
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have Coach will Travel
Steve & Tricia
1982 Newell 38' (built before #1) 6V92 DD, 5 Speed Allison, 12.5 KW Kohler, Couch used to make into a Bed but I fixed it!
https://newellshowcase.com/thumbnails.php?album=214
2007 Yukon, 1981 CJ7 Laredo, 2002 Honda CRV, 1955 Thunderbird, 1952 Pontiac Sedan Delivery, 1952 Ford 8N, 1958 Airstream, 1959 Glasspar 16' Avalon, Cabin in the Woods........what will I work on next
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