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10-24-2007, 03:56 AM
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#1
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Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Huntington WV
Posts: 1,041
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Air system schematic
Do any of you have an air system schematic? Either from Newell or one you have deduced yourself?
I am trying to figure out how the air system works to help pinpoint the likely causes of leaks. The coach is a 95 model.
Yes I know a spray bottle of soapy water is my best tool in this quest, but I have a natural curiosity about the workings of the leveling system.
I would be happy if someone could just explain the six solenoid valves on the "six pack" and what each one of them is supposed to do.
Thanks
Richard
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Richard Rhonda Ty and Alex Entrekin
1995 Newell # 390 DD Series 60, Allison World Trans
Subaru Outback toad
CoMotion Tandem
Often wrong, but seldom in doubt
Rhonda's chronicle https://wersquared.wordpress.com/
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10-24-2007, 05:41 AM
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#2
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Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Texas
Posts: 1,558
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The six pack for air manifold for the front axle contains six solenoids, four of these are for the leveling system when parked: left front raise, left front lower, right front raise, right front lower, The two remaining solenoids control the travel height (raise and lower). The drive axle six pack and the tag axle six pack are similar to the front axle six pack.
The travel solenoids are controlled by the three ride height valves, center of front axle, right side of drive axle and left side of drive axle. The leveling solenoids are controlled by the level sensor, typically located in the center of the bay, near the center of the coach mounted to the ceiling of the bay.
Each six pack has a single air supply line going into it and air lines that go to the corresponding air bags and to an air release valve.
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10-24-2007, 09:54 AM
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#3
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Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: mesa, az
Posts: 1,375
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the manifold for the front solenoids on mine is directly under the drivers side headlight.
the manifold for the rear on mine is on the passenger side engine firewall.
tom
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10-24-2007, 02:03 PM
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#4
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Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Huntington WV
Posts: 1,041
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I knew you guys would come through. I found both of them, and had the bride hit some leveling switchs so I could see hear which ones were connected to which switch. Michael filled in the pieces of the puzzle.
Mine doesn't have an automatic system. You can control each corner with a toggle switch at the driver's console. I am assuming that the MASTER switch that allows you to raise/lower the overall height temporarily overides the travel height solenoids.
Let me run my thinking by both of you. We can do this via PM, but if we use the forum, then the next guy will be able to find this info.
Anyway, the right rear will squat after one day with no compressors running. The other three corners stay up. There is NO system pressure by then. So, there must be check valves on the air bags when in leveling mode ????? Or is the leveling solenoid the only device in the pressure path for leveling? I am trying to understand what is happening that results in the system pressure leaking to zero and only one corner dropping. BTW, the check valves that isolate the brake system are holding, since the brake pressure hangs in there around 115.
__________________
Richard Rhonda Ty and Alex Entrekin
1995 Newell # 390 DD Series 60, Allison World Trans
Subaru Outback toad
CoMotion Tandem
Often wrong, but seldom in doubt
Rhonda's chronicle https://wersquared.wordpress.com/
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10-24-2007, 03:37 PM
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#5
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Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Texas
Posts: 1,558
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I agree that discussing problems on the board rather than through PM's is of benefit to more people since they can see the solutions and later search for the information.
If the right rear is losing air, I would check 1) the dump/lower solenoid at the six pack for that axle to see if it is fully closing, 2) the air connections to the solenoids for that corner at the six pack, 3) the nipple going into the right rear air bag, and 4) the air bags on that corner for excessive cracking or crazing.
The solenoids do tend to start leaking by not fully seating with time. A year ago I replaced all 18 of my solenoids just due to age, well that and the fact that one of the dump valve was sticking closed so the right rear would not always drop.
This year I had to replace the left rear ride height valve due to the crack in the valve body. I was losing 20 psi in 12 minutes. The leak didn't show up by spraying soapy water on it. So much air was leaking out that it physically blew the water away from the valve instead of bubbling.
Your comment about the pressure staying up on the brake tanks is important. If anyone starts seeing the pressure of one or both of the brake supply tanks dropping with the main supply tank get it fixed ASAP. There is a check valve in each of the lines that come off the main supply tank. Losing brake air is a bad deal. I had leaks in both of my brake check valves. The longer the coach sits without being used the more likely the check valves will fail. If the coach has small air leaks, and they all do, and the system pressure goes to zero, outside damp air can get into the tanks over time and cause rust, especially in the check valves.
If anyone is interested, I can post photos of the crack in the travel valve and/or the defective brake check valves.
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10-24-2007, 08:24 PM
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#6
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Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: mesa, az
Posts: 1,375
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i believe that if the air connections were leaking, you would be able to easily see bubbles using windex. the same for the nipple going into the airbag. the leak you are talking about is a slow one and not fast like fulltiming describes. i had one fast leak that lowerd the right front only in leveling mode (mine is manual like yours and totally fabricated by newell) and it showed it self by air coming out of the ride height control valve centered on the front axle. it was a bad solenoid that was letting air escape through the control valve.
if you cant see leaks on the airbags themselves along with the other places listed above, my guess is you have a bad solenoid. i am cheaper than Michael and only replaced the 3 solenoids that i had that were bad. the other two just didnt work. i keep one spare with me now, but at 80 bucks a pop i will replace them as they go bad. i can change one now in about ten minutes or less and it is easy.
i agree with michael on the air brake pressure. the thing we all have to remember is at a certain brake pressure loss, the wheels will lock up.
i had a leak on the air brake dryer and bought the rebuild kit and it fixed it easy.
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10-24-2007, 08:28 PM
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#7
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Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: mesa, az
Posts: 1,375
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i believe that if the air connections were leaking, you would be able to easily see bubbles using windex. the same for the nipple going into the airbag. the leak you are talking about is a slow one and not fast like fulltiming describes. i had one fast leak that lowerd the right front only in leveling mode (mine is manual like yours and totally fabricated by newell) and it showed it self by air coming out of the ride height control valve centered on the front axle. it was a bad solenoid that was letting air escape through the control valve.
if you cant see leaks on the airbags themselves along with the other places listed above, my guess is you have a bad solenoid. i am cheaper than Michael and only replaced the 3 solenoids that i had that were bad. the other two just didnt work. i keep one spare with me now, but at 80 bucks a pop i will replace them as they go bad. i can change one now in about ten minutes or less and it is easy.
i agree with michael on the air brake pressure. the thing we all have to remember is at a certain brake pressure loss, the wheels will lock up.
i had a leak on the air brake dryer and bought the rebuild kit and it fixed it easy.
tom
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10-29-2007, 04:15 PM
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#8
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Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Huntington WV
Posts: 1,041
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I used enough soapy water this weekend to wash the street
Anyway, I only found one leak, at that was on the control valve for sliding the generator in and out. It was bubbling pretty good, so we'll see the impact of fixing that.
With your input, I did get a much better idea of how the air system works, and especially how you can get front to back, or side to side leveling. I didn't have a good understanding of how the ride height system worked with the leveling system. Now I do. When in ride height mode, the ride height solenoid opens to allow air to flow to the ride height valve, which in turns pressurizes or depressurizes the appropriate bag. When in leveling mode those solenoids are closed, and the up/down solenoids pressurize the appropriate tank which feeds the bag.
My biggest lack of understanding came from the wrong assumption. I had a picture of how the air system worked on my Mountain Aire. It only had one front tank and one rear tank, and the leveling was done with hydraulic jacks. The breakthrough in comprehension came when I saw that each set of air bags for an axle has it's unique tank. So, the air piping and valving to work that way is completely different than what I was thinking. The moral of the story.......there is NO substitute for crawling around under your coach.
I had my bride actuate the leveling toggles to help me identify which solenoid was connected to which toggle. I used a very sophisticated and expensive device to determine which solenoid was firing. An steel nail. When the solenoid fires it is magnetized.
__________________
Richard Rhonda Ty and Alex Entrekin
1995 Newell # 390 DD Series 60, Allison World Trans
Subaru Outback toad
CoMotion Tandem
Often wrong, but seldom in doubt
Rhonda's chronicle https://wersquared.wordpress.com/
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11-05-2007, 01:54 PM
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#9
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Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Huntington WV
Posts: 1,041
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It's good news and bad news. The good news is I found a big air leak where a line went into one of the press on fittings. It was on a solenoid WAY up under the coach hidden along the frame rail. I used a compression fitting to replace the one that was leaking. The line looked like it was under a little sideways stress which the press lok fittings don't like.
The bad news? I had hoped to draw a complete schematic of the air system for my own benefit. That didn't happen because the air lines are all bundled together making it impossible to physically trace individual air lines. If I get bored or industrious, I'll snip all the zip ties and trace them out.
__________________
Richard Rhonda Ty and Alex Entrekin
1995 Newell # 390 DD Series 60, Allison World Trans
Subaru Outback toad
CoMotion Tandem
Often wrong, but seldom in doubt
Rhonda's chronicle https://wersquared.wordpress.com/
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09-17-2010, 01:45 AM
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#10
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Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 346
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fulltiming
The solenoids do tend to start leaking by not fully seating with time. A year ago I replaced all 18 of my solenoids just due to age, well that and the fact that one of the dump valve was sticking closed so the right rear would not always drop.
This year I had to replace the left rear ride height valve due to the crack in the valve body. I was losing 20 psi in 12 minutes. The leak didn't show up by spraying soapy water on it. So much air was leaking out that it physically blew the water away from the valve instead of bubbling.
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Michael,
Dredging up an old thread I would like to pose a question. You have replaced all 18 solenoids. I am curious just what parts that includes, surely more than just the electrical coil itself. Here is what Newell just told me about what one receives when the "solenoid" is ordered. Please just comment some more on what tends to fail with age. I want to be prepared to fix a failed valve on the road. Thanks - Newell says "
THE SOLENOID NC-5391 THAT I’M TALKING ABOUT IS MADE BY HWH THERE SIX OF THEM ON A ALUMINUM BLOCK IT INCLUDES THE COIL ,2 WIRES , ORINGS IT IS 12V ,9.5 WATTS ,PSI125 , ORIF: 3/32 ALL METAL TYPE SOLENOID ! "
By the way, the price as of 9/2010 is $103.18.
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09-17-2010, 03:02 AM
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#11
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Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Idyllwild, CA
Posts: 1,340
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Russ,
The good news is that we can most likely troubleshoot the system.
Please describe what the problem is, from there maybe we can help.
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have Coach will Travel
Steve & Tricia
1982 Newell 38' (built before #1) 6V92 DD, 5 Speed Allison, 12.5 KW Kohler, Couch used to make into a Bed but I fixed it!
https://newellshowcase.com/thumbnails.php?album=214
2007 Yukon, 1981 CJ7 Laredo, 2002 Honda CRV, 1955 Thunderbird, 1952 Pontiac Sedan Delivery, 1952 Ford 8N, 1958 Airstream, 1959 Glasspar 16' Avalon, Cabin in the Woods........what will I work on next
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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09-17-2010, 03:28 AM
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#12
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Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Thibodaux, LA
Posts: 1,221
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I recently had one leveling solenoid leaking through the exhaust port. Ordered 2 from Newell expecting to replace one and have a spare. When I pulled the solenoid off I noticed that the o-ring was not seated. I seated it and it now works fine. I guess the moral is don't overlook the simple stuff.
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09-17-2010, 08:52 AM
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#13
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Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: mesa, az
Posts: 1,375
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hi russ,
when you get the 103 dollar solenoid, you get the little unit that screws into the 6 pack with 2 wires coming out of it. it is one expensive puppy.
tom in frankfurt
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09-17-2010, 10:56 AM
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#14
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Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 346
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Hi Forest,
I have observed on two occasions my right rear leveling valve exhausting when the system was not in the travel mode. That should be a failure of the Travel solenoid on the associated six pack. My interest in ordering the very expensive solenoid kit ( calling it a kit may be generous ) is to have one on hand should I suffer a hard failure while on the road. Does this sound reasonable to you?
Thanks, Russ
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09-17-2010, 02:15 PM
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#15
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Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Jefferson City, Tennessee
Posts: 197
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Hi Russ,
You can rebuild the solenoids as Richard has stated in a earlier post. I have rebuilt 8 of mine and they seem to work fine. The main thing that fails is usually the seat which can be replace with.
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Ron & Jean Skeen
1996 Newell 45' #422
2004 Newell 45'8" #689
60 Series Detriot
Yellow Dodge Truck
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09-17-2010, 04:25 PM
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#16
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Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Jefferson City, Tennessee
Posts: 197
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I'm sorry I did not complete my response. I rebuilt the solenoid rubber seat inside the valve that behind the spring. I used Permatex Ultra Grey Rigid High-Torque RTV Silicone which I purchase from Auto Supply. I dug the old seats out and replace with the silicone and allow to cure for 7 days and then sanded down. I bought 2 from newell and save the old ones which I have rebuilt over the last five years. Richard is the one how put me on this process, he is the Guru!
__________________
Ron & Jean Skeen
1996 Newell 45' #422
2004 Newell 45'8" #689
60 Series Detriot
Yellow Dodge Truck
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09-18-2010, 02:08 AM
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#17
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Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Huntington WV
Posts: 1,041
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Russ, not necessarily, on your conclusion that air exhausting from the leveling valve means a leaking solenoid.
Study the HWH manual carefull on the schematic. Coach air goes to the leveling valve, through the solenoids, and on to the air bags. If the valve body is leaking, then the solenoid has no effect. The coach supply air will drain quickly. Your brake air should stay up because of the check valves between the systems.
__________________
Richard Rhonda Ty and Alex Entrekin
1995 Newell # 390 DD Series 60, Allison World Trans
Subaru Outback toad
CoMotion Tandem
Often wrong, but seldom in doubt
Rhonda's chronicle https://wersquared.wordpress.com/
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09-18-2010, 02:25 AM
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#18
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Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 346
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Richard,
If you are referring to the valve body of the leveling valve, I agree. Some kind of internal failure in the leveing valve could cause it to exchaust when it should not. I have discounted that in my case as the valve is new and the problem was observed after valve replacement. I have tried to attach the HWH schematic although it is not correct for my particular coach which has only two six packs and the tag is supported through the six pack for the drive axle. Thanks, Russ
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09-19-2010, 12:49 PM
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#19
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Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Huntington WV
Posts: 1,041
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Russ,
I have the same setup with only one sixpack for the rear. I couldn't find anyone at Newell who could tell me exactly how that setup worked with particular regard to adding or removing air from the tag bags. If anyone out there knows exactly how that works or has a schematic, I would love to see it.
__________________
Richard Rhonda Ty and Alex Entrekin
1995 Newell # 390 DD Series 60, Allison World Trans
Subaru Outback toad
CoMotion Tandem
Often wrong, but seldom in doubt
Rhonda's chronicle https://wersquared.wordpress.com/
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09-19-2010, 03:06 PM
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#20
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Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Indiana
Posts: 424
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Just based on my experience with my set-up (6 pak for each axle) the only reason for a 6 pak on the tag is to allow it to take more or less load than the main axle to allow shorter turning radius or as an aid in low traction conditions (less weight on the tag) or for "fooling" axle scales (more weight on the tag).
Regarding the one 6 pak for the rear setups, my guess is that the raise and lower valves are plumbed to both axles equally. The tag would be plumbed in with the main on the travel valve as well except there would be an air pressure regulator in the air supply line to the tag.
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1993 Newell 45'#316, 1976 Trans Am 455, 1967 GTO, 1953 Chevrolet 3105 (panel truck),1952 Chevrolet 3600,1969 Airstream Overlander. Always fixing something!
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