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Old 11-26-2009, 02:26 PM   #1
Brad Townsend
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Default ULSD ADDITIVES for older engines?

OK folks I was once settled that we didn't need an additive for these older engines coming from a detroit rep. But as I further investigate the web for more info it seems that there may be a need for an additive. IF Low sulphur diesel had 500 parts pm and now ultra low sulphur has 15 parts pm and tis is said to be a lubricant then where is the lubricant coming from? Also read a thread mentioning that generators that run on diesel can be effected because there is not enough cetane producing the original power that low sulfur produced thus producing less power which means possibly cutting out prematurely because the original power threshold is now lower.
Any thoughts on this are encouraged and appreciated

Brad
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Old 11-26-2009, 03:44 PM   #2
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Brad,
PEMEX Stations here in Mexico still have the Good Stuff. As long as you have your Passports you could hop down here once and while and get some.
If you only want to visit, Los Algadones (go south at the Quechan Casino off of the 8) has a Parking Lot that is run by the Indian Nation for $5.00/day for the Car. Very short walk accross the Border. World's best Shrimp Tacos are down to the 1st Street, go to the left for a few shops and inside to the left. Karen could go shopping and spend some $$$ oin Mexican Trinkets.
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Old 11-26-2009, 04:41 PM   #3
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Brad,
I asked the service desk guy at a Detroit Dealer here in Calgary if there was any fuel additive I could use or should consider. He said without hesitation that they do not recommend any fuel additives for their engines. I will be watching this post with great interest because I felt a bit like he might have added - but we do rebuild engines.
Bill
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Old 11-26-2009, 06:14 PM   #4
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Bill,

There are a lot of threads on the bus conversion forums about this topic. You might start there for some more opinions.

The generic problem with additives is that the manufacturer does not know what is in them. They would be nuts to tell you to use one. Plus for a manufacturer to recommend one, you would think they would need some data to support it's use. Not likely for them to spend the time nor money to promote someone else's product, especially for an engine that has been out of production for a while. Yeh, I know that sounds like an engineer talking.

I think you are going to find many manufactures of supplements that will swear that you need their stuff, all engine suppliers who will say don't use anything but diesel, and a whole bunch of people with unbelievably strong opinions based on little data.
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Old 11-26-2009, 10:23 PM   #5
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Here is a pdf from Clifford Power Systems on their take about Ultra-Low Sulfur aka ULSD and whether or not it acts as a lubricant.

Near the top of the pdf you can click to enlarge it for better viewing. Depending on your screen size you may have move the page side to side with an increase screen size. The nice thing about reading it here is you don't have to download it to read it.

CP_info_sheet_26_low_sulfur_fuel.pdf
[PDF]http://cliffordpower.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/CP_info_sheet_26_low_sulfur_fuel.pdf[/PDF]
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Old 11-27-2009, 01:10 AM   #6
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My guy says to add nothing except anti fungus protection for the fuel.
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Old 12-02-2009, 01:58 PM   #7
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Thanks Ken.

I am enclosing some sites that will help to clear up this question. it would appear that there are additives added from the fuel suppliers to replace what is taken out when extracting the sulphur. It also appears that all suppliers must comply to ASTM specification D975.

In short the best assurances for good diesel quality is to fill up at popular places where the fuel is used up quickly rather than sitting in partially filled tanks when moisture can develop, make sure that the pump you fill from has a filter on the side of it. #2 diesel has higher content of cetane than #1, (Higher is better), Keep your tanks in the coach full when setting for long periods for the same reason (moisture). Moisture is the main culprit for the stuff that grows and plugs your filters. Note: when first introducing ULSD to your tank you can experience dirty fuel because of the cleaning action of the ULSD cleaning debris off the walls of your tank.
I encourage anyone interested in more info from the industry to check it out for yourselves at some of the web sites here. one site can lead to others and you will also find out some other interesting info about the fuel industry.

I emailed Flying J about this question and received the following response.


Bradford,
Sulfur acts as a lubricant in diesel engines, and LSD (max of 500 ppm
sulfur) has a higher naturally-occurring lubricity than ULSD (max of 15 ppm
sulfur). However, the ASTM D975 specifications for ULSD require that
additional non-sulfur based lubricants are added to achieve the same
lubricity as LSD. The additive is not standardized, and varies by
supplier. What is required is for suppliers to meet the lubricity spec, as
defined by ASTM.

Thanks,
Js

Joseph Butler
National Supply Manager
Flying J, Inc.

Phone: 801-624-1697

Additional web sites:

http://www.bp.com/liveassets/bp_inte...oSul062906.pdf

http://www.exxon.com/USA-English/GFM..._Fuels_FAQ.asp
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Old 03-25-2010, 04:41 PM   #8
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Against my better judgment, and having donned my flame retardant suit, I step into the ULSD additive debate with much trepidation:

First- I must respectfully disagree with Flying J's response to Brad. Sulfur is not a lubricant.There is a good reason for calling it brimstone. Sulfur clogs particulate filters and converters, and in its caustic form (ever hear of sulfuric acid?) eats turbo blades and bearing journals. It is bad stuff! One tank full of the older low sulfur diesel and the sulfur content can literally destroy the turbo blades on a CAT ACERT engine (about $6K in repairs). I have the pictures to prove it.

The processing required to reduce the sulfur content of diesel to 15 ppm, also removes naturally occurring lubricating agents. The US government mandates a 520-micron wear standard for commercial diesel, so additives to increase lubricity and inhibit corrosion, must be added to ULSD prior to its retail sale.

If you feel the need for more lubricity, then you must buy it on the open market. The problem being, who is selling the snake-oil, and who is selling the good stuff? If you spend some time searching the internet, you may be surprised to find certain name brand additives may actually reduce lubricity.

The bottom line- Diesel engine manufacturers are not recommending the use of after market lubricity additives. As a sampling:

Caterpillar’s recommendation is from their “Caterpillar Commercial Diesel Engine Fluids Recommendations” document:
"There are many different types of fuel additives that are available to use. Caterpillar does not generally recommend the use of fuel additives."

Cummins recommendation is:
"If it is determined by a Cummins dealer or distributor that use of a non-Cummins product has caused a failure during the Cummins warranty period, then the repair of that failure would not be covered by Cummins warranty".[Note from JC; This gives the service manager some very broad powers- if he determines you are using additives- and even thinks they may be a cause- you may need some very deep pockets to counter his decision]

Mack Trucks recommendation:
"Mack Trucks, Inc., neither recognizes nor recommends the use of any fuel additives. We do allow a maximum of 5% bio-diesel fuel to be blended with regular diesel fuel for use in our engines."


As a side note- On the good side; it takes around 60 late model trucks to equal the emissions of a single well running truck sold in 1988. I had the honor of testing our first 2007 CAT ACERT engine a few years back, and after 5000 miles of cross-country testing, to include a stint in Death Valley at 117 degree temperatures, the exhaust pipes remained as clean as when I left Miami. I often rubbed a white handkerchief inside the tail pipe, yet found nothing in the way of soot. This was several years ago and before the 2010 EPA mandated engines started coming on line. Rumor has it that 2010 engines can sometimes actually clean the air as they travel through some towns and cities. Newell plans to test our new 2010 EPA engine this summer, and I will keep you posted.

John Clark

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Old 03-25-2010, 05:57 PM   #9
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John, does this advice apply to those of us with Classics employing the 6V92 and 8V92 two stroke Detroit Diesels? Is there anything we need to add to Diesel #2 to protect our engines, or are we OK?
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Old 03-25-2010, 09:54 PM   #10
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Hi Clarke,

We are not seeing many issues from a service shop viewpoint, but we do recommend carrying one or two spare fuel filters. We are finding on older coaches, that ULSD is cleaning the 'crud' build-up in fuel lines and tanks, and in turn shortening the time span between filter changes. We sometimes see three to four two-strokers go through the service department in a month, and have yet to hear of any horror stories. Perhaps some forum viewers can provide their experience with ULSD, or perhaps one of the moderators can create a straw poll?

I own an 8V92, but due to a heavy travel schedule have not had time to roll up some miles using ULSD. My commuter car is a diesel, and so is my wife's Ford pickup. I also own some diesel toys including a CAT backhoe and CAT skid steer, along with two Kubota tractors, all of which seem to like the 15-ppm sulfur over the old 500-ppm stuff. The only additive I use is biocide in my coach.

I strongly recommend using large brand name truck stops, as they really cannot afford to shortchange large trucking fleets with low-lubricity diesel.

My present concern is ethanol in gasoline. Ethanol's phase-separation properties are playing havoc on my outboards, scooters, and lawn equipment. I may have to go back to full-timing if I can't keep my wife's lawn care stuff running

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Old 03-25-2010, 10:18 PM   #11
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Thanks, John. I buy mainly from Flying J when on the road, and locally from a local ARCO that caters to truckers in the local warehouse district.....they sell a lot of diesel #2, so it's not sitting for long periods in their underground tanks.
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Old 03-26-2010, 04:39 AM   #12
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I have not had any problems with the ULSD in my 8V92 after many fill-ups. If I am offered the opportunity to go into a truck lane that still has the LSD, I will usually choose the LSD (Low Sulfur Diesel NOT the other kind) rather than the ULSD but I haven't been able to tell the difference between the two although the ULSD should, all other things being equal, give slightly fewer miles per gallon in an engine original designed for LSD.

I echo John's admonition, NEVER put LSD in an engine specifically designed for ULSD.

John, thanks for the well researched response. Much appreciated.
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Old 03-26-2010, 05:14 AM   #13
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John, I agree with you. I am not worried as much about USLD as I am ethanol. Oklahoma is one of only a few states that still offer 100% gasoline. Many of my cars and lawn equipment and other toys wont run on ethanol. Ethanol eats plastic away so Im curious if I am going to have to replace the plastic fuel tank in one of my collector cars.... The government needs to stop subsidizing corn!
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Old 03-26-2010, 05:36 AM   #14
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I am concerned about preserving the fuel and preventing microbal growth. StarTron has been highly recomended, has anyone had experience with this product or any recomendations.
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Old 03-26-2010, 03:10 PM   #15
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Thanks for the feedback John. Since my last post I have talked to a number of OLDER detroit mechanics which mentioned they would put ATF (automatic transmission fluid) in the diesel as a lubricant. ratio is one quart per 100 gallons. They say it not only lubricates the fuel pump but also cleans the injectors and slightly increases performance.

Have you heard of this?

A side note about the ULSD cleaning the tank and lines. I have experienced the junk that gets cleaned from the ULSD. i changed my filters and the fuel inside them was black with junk. important to drain the stuff from the seperators.

Brad
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Old 03-26-2010, 11:30 PM   #16
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Brad,

Yes, I'm familiar with the recommendation of putting ATF in diesel, but just to be safe, I will run this by Bruce Blankenship of Caterpillar. He is one of the finest diesel mechanics I have ever had the pleasure to work with, and is known as 'the man to go to' in the CAT troubleshooting hierarchy.

OK, I just talked with Bruce and here is the scoop on ATF. Bruce has personally used ATF in the fuel of his older engines, but doesn't recommend its use on the newer EGR equipped engines, especially on engines with particulate filters.

Bruce also cautions to make sure the red ATF doesn't dye your fuel pink. If a highway check finds any red dye in your fuel you could be in for a very nasty fine.
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Old 03-26-2010, 11:35 PM   #17
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Hi Michael,

I'm glad your clarified your preference for 'LSD'. I was beginning to worry?

John
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Old 03-27-2010, 04:55 AM   #18
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Hi John.

Hope to get back to see you guys during the next few months. My current employer would not be sympathetic to the 1960's kind of LSD (Lysergic acid diethylamide).
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Old 03-28-2010, 02:37 PM   #19
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good read.
I'm glad that Brad posted his question and that John posted an educated answer. I will be using some ATF simply as a precautionary step in the maintenance of my little V-6, 6V92.
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Old 03-29-2010, 02:51 PM   #20
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ATF is an old trick for cleaning injectors from diesel way back. ATF has a high detergent content, which is what makes it "wet out" so well.

I keep a gallon of ATF on coach to prefill the fuel filter when I have to change it.
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