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11-20-2010, 01:22 PM
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#41
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Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Huntington WV
Posts: 1,041
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So we get done to the conundrum. I did not see an obvious problem when I finally got the head off.
I did find a significant amount of coolant in Cyl 5, and none in the others. I do see a slight shiny place at the block web between 5 and 6. I do not see any cracks in the liner. I did not see any apparent damage to the injector tube.
The liner is supposed to be somewhere between .002 and .005 proud of the block to seal against the gasket and head. I only had a crude dial indicator jig yesterday but the liner in question is flush to .001 proud. The other liners appear to be about .002 proud.
I took the head to an authorized DD shop in Charleston for them to pressure test. One of the mechanics there looked at the head and the head gasket and didn't see any visible signs of damage.
This was kind of my worst scenario. Not finding an obvious breach.
It'll be after T'day before the shop can get to it.
The cyl wall you see is where the coolant etched the wall.
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__________________
Richard Rhonda Ty and Alex Entrekin
1995 Newell # 390 DD Series 60, Allison World Trans
Subaru Outback toad
CoMotion Tandem
Often wrong, but seldom in doubt
Rhonda's chronicle https://wersquared.wordpress.com/
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11-20-2010, 01:42 PM
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#42
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Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: mesa, az
Posts: 1,375
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now is when the good engineer figures things out....
likely it would be no different if it is not obvious, even if you went to a shop.
it will be interesting to see what the shop finds on the head.
tom
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11-20-2010, 02:27 PM
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#43
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Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Huntington WV
Posts: 1,041
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So as I go back and look at the pictures, the camera picked up something I did not with the naked eye.
I see a stain on the coolant port on the right side. If I think about this right that coolant port should have a clean seal around it.
I'll look more carefully at the head gasket right there.
I am also trying to cobble something together to pressurize the coolant passages in the block so I can see if the liner is cracked or leaking.
That much coolant HAD to come from somewhere.
__________________
Richard Rhonda Ty and Alex Entrekin
1995 Newell # 390 DD Series 60, Allison World Trans
Subaru Outback toad
CoMotion Tandem
Often wrong, but seldom in doubt
Rhonda's chronicle https://wersquared.wordpress.com/
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11-20-2010, 03:53 PM
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#44
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Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Idyllwild, CA
Posts: 1,340
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1st I would be concerned about the pitting in that Cylinder Wall, this may create further issues. How deep is the pitting? can it be Honed, you will still need to remove that Piston?
I would think that if the Head Gasket was leaking you would see the evidence, sometimes only on one side (Block or Head). You may find the problem with the Seal for the Liner?
__________________
have Coach will Travel
Steve & Tricia
1982 Newell 38' (built before #1) 6V92 DD, 5 Speed Allison, 12.5 KW Kohler, Couch used to make into a Bed but I fixed it!
https://newellshowcase.com/thumbnails.php?album=214
2007 Yukon, 1981 CJ7 Laredo, 2002 Honda CRV, 1955 Thunderbird, 1952 Pontiac Sedan Delivery, 1952 Ford 8N, 1958 Airstream, 1959 Glasspar 16' Avalon, Cabin in the Woods........what will I work on next
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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11-20-2010, 04:30 PM
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#45
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Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Riverside, California
Posts: 1,543
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Richard, thanks for taking the time to take the pictures and post them. So, what does it look like? What is the damage?
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11-20-2010, 05:11 PM
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#46
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Member
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 39
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Richard,
I believe the spec for liner height is -0.0005 to +0.003.
BTW, did you bar the engine to inspect the entire liner? Could there be a crack or pinhole in the liner for cylinder number five? Given the violent bubbling of the coolant (as reported earlier) sounds like high cylinder pressure making it's way into the coolant system. I'd suspect cavitation erosion of the liner. Just a SWAG but maybe thinness can be detected with light tapping.
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11-20-2010, 05:19 PM
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#47
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Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Huntington WV
Posts: 1,041
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I don't like the etching on that cylinder, so it will be replaced.
I may find the problem when I yank it out.
I have to make a fixture to accurately gauge how far the cyl liner is above or below the deck.
__________________
Richard Rhonda Ty and Alex Entrekin
1995 Newell # 390 DD Series 60, Allison World Trans
Subaru Outback toad
CoMotion Tandem
Often wrong, but seldom in doubt
Rhonda's chronicle https://wersquared.wordpress.com/
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11-20-2010, 06:07 PM
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#48
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Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 194
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Could You?
Could you get an old Pressure Cap, Drill a hole and install a tire nipple in it. this should allow you to pressurize the system... some corks for the holes..Old wine stoppers maybe..Drink the wine also!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard and Rhonda
So as I go back and look at the pictures, the camera picked up something I did not with the naked eye.
I see a stain on the coolant port on the right side. If I think about this right that coolant port should have a clean seal around it.
I'll look more carefully at the head gasket right there.
I am also trying to cobble something together to pressurize the coolant passages in the block so I can see if the liner is cracked or leaking.
That much coolant HAD to come from somewhere.
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Jimmy
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11-20-2010, 07:06 PM
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#49
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Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Huntington WV
Posts: 1,041
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LOL,
That was my plan. Plug the holes with rubber stoppers obtained the the Home Depot/Lowes and use the blow off gun rigged to a low pressure regulator.
Soapy water on the liner and block to look for bubbles........
That's tomorrows project.
__________________
Richard Rhonda Ty and Alex Entrekin
1995 Newell # 390 DD Series 60, Allison World Trans
Subaru Outback toad
CoMotion Tandem
Often wrong, but seldom in doubt
Rhonda's chronicle https://wersquared.wordpress.com/
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11-20-2010, 10:43 PM
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#50
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Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Idyllwild, CA
Posts: 1,340
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take pics!
__________________
have Coach will Travel
Steve & Tricia
1982 Newell 38' (built before #1) 6V92 DD, 5 Speed Allison, 12.5 KW Kohler, Couch used to make into a Bed but I fixed it!
https://newellshowcase.com/thumbnails.php?album=214
2007 Yukon, 1981 CJ7 Laredo, 2002 Honda CRV, 1955 Thunderbird, 1952 Pontiac Sedan Delivery, 1952 Ford 8N, 1958 Airstream, 1959 Glasspar 16' Avalon, Cabin in the Woods........what will I work on next
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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11-21-2010, 02:57 AM
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#51
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Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: south louisiana
Posts: 654
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Steve, did you want pictures of soapy water!
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if you think my spellin is bad, you should sea my handwritten. #437 w/flex toad (STAY AWAY FROM LARRY BELL aka larrynjeri) he is a lier and a lock picker.
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11-21-2010, 03:13 PM
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#52
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Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Idyllwild, CA
Posts: 1,340
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yep, that would be great
__________________
have Coach will Travel
Steve & Tricia
1982 Newell 38' (built before #1) 6V92 DD, 5 Speed Allison, 12.5 KW Kohler, Couch used to make into a Bed but I fixed it!
https://newellshowcase.com/thumbnails.php?album=214
2007 Yukon, 1981 CJ7 Laredo, 2002 Honda CRV, 1955 Thunderbird, 1952 Pontiac Sedan Delivery, 1952 Ford 8N, 1958 Airstream, 1959 Glasspar 16' Avalon, Cabin in the Woods........what will I work on next
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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11-21-2010, 05:19 PM
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#53
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Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Thibodaux, LA
Posts: 1,221
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Steve, looks like you got your mind in my gutter!
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11-22-2010, 12:04 PM
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#54
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Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Huntington WV
Posts: 1,041
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Ok, back on track here.
While I am waiting for the head to come back from the shop, I have a lot of time to think about this situation. My fear is that I will get it all back together only to see the same problem. So I have an idea, and I would like to know what you think about it.
It is pretty clear that no 5 is the problem cyl. So put the head back on, cam back in, valve train on, rotate engine so that no 5 exhaust valves are cracked open. Make a plate to fit on no 5 exhaust manifold. The has a threaded hole for an airline. Bolt the plate on and pressurize no 5. Pour water in the coolant system until it's level with the top of the open water pump. Look to see if the water bubbles.
What am I missing?
__________________
Richard Rhonda Ty and Alex Entrekin
1995 Newell # 390 DD Series 60, Allison World Trans
Subaru Outback toad
CoMotion Tandem
Often wrong, but seldom in doubt
Rhonda's chronicle https://wersquared.wordpress.com/
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11-22-2010, 09:08 PM
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#55
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Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Huntington WV
Posts: 1,041
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Brighter lighting, loupes, and getting the right angle revealed the problem.. Cracked liner.
I had the corks and was ready to pressure test the system. It took a couple of days to drink enough wine to have 12 corks. Rhonda helped.
Hopefully I pick up the parts tomorrow, and as Tuga would say, start turning to the right.
__________________
Richard Rhonda Ty and Alex Entrekin
1995 Newell # 390 DD Series 60, Allison World Trans
Subaru Outback toad
CoMotion Tandem
Often wrong, but seldom in doubt
Rhonda's chronicle https://wersquared.wordpress.com/
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11-22-2010, 09:24 PM
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#56
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Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Riverside, California
Posts: 1,543
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We would have been happy to contribute corks from this end....haha!
Well, nothing like certainty! Glad the problem became obvious before a lot more testing! Sometimes it just takes a different angle, and a little more light!!!
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11-22-2010, 09:39 PM
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#57
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Senior Member
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Houma, LA
Posts: 886
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For those who don't know what "turning to the right" is: it is a term used in the oilfield business. When you are turning to the right you are DRILLING. When you are turning to the left you are coming out of the hole and that is not good!
Glad you found the problem Richard. How do you change the liner?
Are you going to change all 6 liners?
__________________
Tuga & Karen Gaidry
1999 Newell 45 w/2 slides
Coach #512
2005 Pilot
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11-22-2010, 11:38 PM
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#58
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Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 346
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Richard,
I know you are relieved to find the source of the leak. I'm with Tuga though, how do you fix it? Please give us the path you plan to follow. Of course we will be interested in your thought on the root cause - manufacturing defect, cavitation, etc.
Good Luck,
Russ
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11-22-2010, 11:58 PM
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#59
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Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Huntington WV
Posts: 1,041
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The liner slips out from the top. It has O rings to seal it in the block. It is made to be replaced.
It is a metal fatigue issue, I suppose. Internet research shows that it does happen, just like blown head gaskets, and cracked heads.
I still have this nagging suspicion that I caused this. Why? Because the problem developed the first trip after I changed the coolant. I was always suspicious that the head would need to be burped, but all the info on the 60's said no. I do know that when I refilled it did need considerable topping off. I can imagine a scenario of no coolant at that liner when I first started the engine after the change over, it getting hot, and then thermally shocked when the coolant did reach it. That would cause a crack. Is this what happened? Who knows. On the other hand, I may have been loosing small amounts of coolant since I owned the coach. All of the real root causes of the problem are merely speculation with the data I have.
But, if I were changing coolant again, I would definitely burp the head by loosening one of the two coolant temp sensors at the driver side of the head toward the front. They are a PITA to get to from the engine compartment, but easy from the engine access panel inside the coach.
I will only replace the one that is cracked at this point. There are arguments both ways. Replace them all while you have it apart, and the opposite view, if it ain't broke don't fix it.
I'll post some pics of the liner when I get it out.
__________________
Richard Rhonda Ty and Alex Entrekin
1995 Newell # 390 DD Series 60, Allison World Trans
Subaru Outback toad
CoMotion Tandem
Often wrong, but seldom in doubt
Rhonda's chronicle https://wersquared.wordpress.com/
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11-23-2010, 01:38 AM
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#60
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Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Indiana
Posts: 424
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IMO the crack would not be caused by cavitation...Probably metal fatigue. It will be interesting to see what that liner looks like. While we are talking coolant ,,I'm curious as to how many are using cavitition treatment in their coolant? I understand that Baldwin has a coolant filter that will replenish the additive for 150,000 ?? miles. I'm also including a link concerning coolant that I found interesting.
http://www.expertdiesel.com/cavitation.htm
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1993 Newell 45'#316, 1976 Trans Am 455, 1967 GTO, 1953 Chevrolet 3105 (panel truck),1952 Chevrolet 3600,1969 Airstream Overlander. Always fixing something!
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