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12-12-2010, 03:05 PM
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#81
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Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Riverside, California
Posts: 1,543
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Richard, I know exactly what you are saying, and I'm not an engineer. I would have done the same thing, and, in fact, have in other similar situations.....haha! Nothing like peace of mind, though. So.....when is the big startup?
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12-12-2010, 03:41 PM
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#82
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Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Huntington WV
Posts: 1,041
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Jeff,
DD came out with new headbolts and gasket around 2000. I used new headbolts and the new gasket. The new bolts are torqued to a higher value than the old. The DD paperwork says that the old headbolts are not interchangeable with the new gasket.
Well, we have quite a storm brewing here today, so I think I'll have to put the finish off for another time.
__________________
__________________
Richard Rhonda Ty and Alex Entrekin
1995 Newell # 390 DD Series 60, Allison World Trans
Subaru Outback toad
CoMotion Tandem
Often wrong, but seldom in doubt
Rhonda's chronicle https://wersquared.wordpress.com/
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12-12-2010, 10:39 PM
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#83
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Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 346
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Ricahrd,
Thanks for the update. I have been wondering and even typed a long PM which apprantly disappeared along the way. As the others have said, we are following your work with admiration and anticipation of a successful conclusion. Just be sure to let us know how to goes from here. Very glad you are satisifed with the height of the liner. Those are pretty small tolerances. Snow, what's that? Russ in Key West
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12-20-2010, 01:15 AM
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#84
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Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Huntington WV
Posts: 1,041
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Woo Hoo !!!
It runs.
It was a balmy 28 yesterday, and 22 today, with six inches or snow on the ground, so I thought it would be a good weekend to work on the engine. Just to add to the ambiance, it snowed most of the morning.
I got her cranked at 5:17 this afternoon, not that I'm counting or anything.
Here are the numbers.
Parts $1800, including the head gasket I bought twice. Head gasket, cam/main/con rod bearings, oil pan gasket, one liner, valve cover gasket, oil, coolant
New tools. 400, including the cherry picker
Clothes that need to be burned, two sets including one pair of insulated overalls.
Days to disassemble 3
Days to reassemble 6, including the two days of putting the head on, takeing it off to check the liner, and putting it back on
Bolts left over Zero Plastic bags and sharpies are miracle workers
After assembly, I had to bar the engine several revolutions to set the valves and injectors, so I was pretty safe in thinking nothing was locked up. I also was meticulous in makeing timeing marks, so I was pretty sure the cam didn't get out of sorts. The big problem is loosing prime on the fuel system, and the fact that you drain the fuel rail going to the injectors when you take the head off. I tried pumping some fuel in the fuel line with a small pump I had, but no dice.
I used the starter just on a whim that it might self prime. After five or six trys. Nope. So, I thought about a trick I picked up from another site. Use a bug sprayer, fill with diesel, and cobble the discharge into the fuel line. So off to Lowes I went.
On a lark, I hit the starter when I got back just for grins. Hmmmmmm, I thought I heard one cylinder hit. Wait a minute for the starter to cool, and hit it again. Bingo, missed for a couple of revs and then smoothed right out.
I will confess, I did call Rhonda with the din of engine in the background. She has been very patient with time I have put into this.
So far no leaks and no issues. If the weather will hold, I take a nice long drive tomorrow.
I been jonesin to drive the bus.
__________________
Richard Rhonda Ty and Alex Entrekin
1995 Newell # 390 DD Series 60, Allison World Trans
Subaru Outback toad
CoMotion Tandem
Often wrong, but seldom in doubt
Rhonda's chronicle https://wersquared.wordpress.com/
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12-20-2010, 02:53 AM
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#85
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Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Idyllwild, CA
Posts: 1,340
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congrats! I know how good it feels when the old girl belches an then purrs.
__________________
have Coach will Travel
Steve & Tricia
1982 Newell 38' (built before #1) 6V92 DD, 5 Speed Allison, 12.5 KW Kohler, Couch used to make into a Bed but I fixed it!
https://newellshowcase.com/thumbnails.php?album=214
2007 Yukon, 1981 CJ7 Laredo, 2002 Honda CRV, 1955 Thunderbird, 1952 Pontiac Sedan Delivery, 1952 Ford 8N, 1958 Airstream, 1959 Glasspar 16' Avalon, Cabin in the Woods........what will I work on next
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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12-20-2010, 03:21 AM
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#86
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Member
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Elk Grove, CA
Posts: 91
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Wow! We have all been waiting with bated breath for your report and...success!! Congratulations on seeing this job through. What's next, maybe a transmission overhaul?
__________________
Tim and Laura
2000, 45', Single Slide
Coach 541
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12-20-2010, 12:06 PM
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#87
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Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 346
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I love happy endings! Congratulations and thanks for documenting your experience. It will undoubtedly help someone in the future. Russ
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12-20-2010, 01:22 PM
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#88
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Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: south louisiana
Posts: 654
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Well done
Any thoughts of space travel?
__________________
if you think my spellin is bad, you should sea my handwritten. #437 w/flex toad (STAY AWAY FROM LARRY BELL aka larrynjeri) he is a lier and a lock picker.
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12-20-2010, 01:44 PM
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#89
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Senior Member
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Houma, LA
Posts: 886
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Congrats Richard, I knew you could do it. We're proud of you!
What would this repair job have cost if a DD repair shop had done the work? I'll bet it would have been over $8,000!
The good thing about doing it yourself is ---- you learned something!
Again, congratulations on a job well done.
__________________
Tuga & Karen Gaidry
1999 Newell 45 w/2 slides
Coach #512
2005 Pilot
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12-21-2010, 12:10 AM
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#90
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Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Huntington WV
Posts: 1,041
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Well, doo doo.
I went to take the coach for a drive today. While it was warming, something changed in the way the engine was running. It also started blowing blue smoke while idling.
After getting it unstuck from the snow, I took it for a short drive. No power, but lots of smoke. Yuck.
So I put in back in the parking space.
I think I lost the turbo. Here is why. I noticed oil in the downstream side of the intake air hose on the turbo. That's not supposed to be there. The only way that happens is if the seal is going on the turbo. I told Rhonda it was a matter of time before the turbo would need replacing. I saw the oil in the discharge and also the impeller had a few dings in it. The coolant in the oil might have been very bad for the turbo bearings. I guess that was a short time.
The fact that the engine ran good for a while and then died also points to the turbo.
I was low on engine oil when I got back from my little drive, another sign the turbo seal is gone.
I'll pull off the intake and check it when the holiday hooplah is finished. For now it's time to go see family. I will also bar the engine over and make sure there are no "rough" places to explain the problem.
All guages were good, except very little boost and lots of blue smoke.
Diagnosis to follow.
Doo doo.
__________________
Richard Rhonda Ty and Alex Entrekin
1995 Newell # 390 DD Series 60, Allison World Trans
Subaru Outback toad
CoMotion Tandem
Often wrong, but seldom in doubt
Rhonda's chronicle https://wersquared.wordpress.com/
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12-21-2010, 11:09 PM
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#91
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Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Huntington WV
Posts: 1,041
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It's not the turbo. I pulled the intake elbow and it spins freely. No play, and no signs of damage.
I also barred the engine a number of revolutions with no tight places. I checked my timing marks while I was at it. No problem
A fellow on a diesel site suggested that I may have an injector problem.
I'll pop the hatch, and use a temp gun to scan the exhaust manifold. I am thinking if I have an injector problem then that cylinder should be colder than the rest.
If I had the DD interface on a computer, I think you can shut one cylinder down at a time. That would be the trick. Try them until the smoke goes away and you have the culprit, that is if injector problems are the source.
Perhaps one of the connections came loose or a wire got pinched.
I am still trying to figure out a root cause that would explain why it did not do this when I first cranked it.
__________________
Richard Rhonda Ty and Alex Entrekin
1995 Newell # 390 DD Series 60, Allison World Trans
Subaru Outback toad
CoMotion Tandem
Often wrong, but seldom in doubt
Rhonda's chronicle https://wersquared.wordpress.com/
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12-22-2010, 03:57 AM
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#92
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Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Idyllwild, CA
Posts: 1,340
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Not real sure about the series 60 but getting the rack properly adjusted on a 71 or 92 series is a very touchy endeavor indeed. Even an experienced mechanic can have problems getting it properly adjusted.
__________________
have Coach will Travel
Steve & Tricia
1982 Newell 38' (built before #1) 6V92 DD, 5 Speed Allison, 12.5 KW Kohler, Couch used to make into a Bed but I fixed it!
https://newellshowcase.com/thumbnails.php?album=214
2007 Yukon, 1981 CJ7 Laredo, 2002 Honda CRV, 1955 Thunderbird, 1952 Pontiac Sedan Delivery, 1952 Ford 8N, 1958 Airstream, 1959 Glasspar 16' Avalon, Cabin in the Woods........what will I work on next
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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12-22-2010, 04:27 AM
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#93
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Member
Join Date: Jan 2000
Posts: 11
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I have enjoyed your adventure with your engine work. A bad turbo will cause a series 60 to smoke, but there are at least two other issues that will also produce smoke. One is low fuel pressure, which can be adjusted with shims in the pump itself. The other cause is air in the fuel.These electronic engines don't like to run with low pressure or air. I had mine in a shop for 24 hours, running every test they could think of before we found air from a bad primary fuel filter. It's running great now but I sure sweat for a few days. Good luck in getting this one resolved.
Bob Scott
1995 with a
2000 series 60
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12-22-2010, 10:24 AM
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#94
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Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Huntington WV
Posts: 1,041
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Thanks to both of you.
As I said earlier, I pretty much eliminated the turbo as the culprit. So when our holiday travels are finished, I am going back and do four things. As I ran it more last evening, I feel sure that one or possibly two cylinders are missing badly.
Run the engine and look at the temp on the exhaust manifold at each cylinder.
Look for pinched or loose wires in the injector harness.
Check all the adjustments on the valves, injectors, and jakes now that the cam has "run in".
Verify that the cam is indeed timed to TDC on the engine.
Of course, if I have to drop the dough to buy the DD computer software to complete the diagnosis, then I can jack up the power a bit. Wink wink.
I am not despondent. Curious is more accurate. And a little frustrated that I won't have time for another week to look at it. Family is more important. Besides both sets of inlaw usually have a standing list of things that need fixing when I get to their places.
__________________
Richard Rhonda Ty and Alex Entrekin
1995 Newell # 390 DD Series 60, Allison World Trans
Subaru Outback toad
CoMotion Tandem
Often wrong, but seldom in doubt
Rhonda's chronicle https://wersquared.wordpress.com/
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12-22-2010, 04:26 PM
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#95
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Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Idyllwild, CA
Posts: 1,340
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so what you're saying Bob is that the series 60 may not bleed itself. Richard should look at that possibility as well because air in the fuel system could work it's way in to the rest of the fuel system after the engine is run for a while (we have a 6V92 so I am not familiar with those new fangled engines)
__________________
have Coach will Travel
Steve & Tricia
1982 Newell 38' (built before #1) 6V92 DD, 5 Speed Allison, 12.5 KW Kohler, Couch used to make into a Bed but I fixed it!
https://newellshowcase.com/thumbnails.php?album=214
2007 Yukon, 1981 CJ7 Laredo, 2002 Honda CRV, 1955 Thunderbird, 1952 Pontiac Sedan Delivery, 1952 Ford 8N, 1958 Airstream, 1959 Glasspar 16' Avalon, Cabin in the Woods........what will I work on next
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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12-27-2010, 02:52 PM
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#96
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Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Huntington WV
Posts: 1,041
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A good laugh at my expense
Ok, Homer did something dumb. Du huh.
The exhaust valve lash adjustment was backed all the way out on one cylinder. The exhaust valves were not opening on one cylinder.
I know in reflection what happened. I used a big wrench to loosen all the lock nuts on the valve lash adjustments when I set the valves. I simply missed those two when I went through the valves. As the engine ran, the lash adjustment simply unthreaded.
That explains how the engine started out fine, but starting running poorly after 30 minutes.
I ran out of time and warmth last night so I didn't get to button it back up and try it.
Hopefully the snow will let up enough to today for me to finish.
__________________
Richard Rhonda Ty and Alex Entrekin
1995 Newell # 390 DD Series 60, Allison World Trans
Subaru Outback toad
CoMotion Tandem
Often wrong, but seldom in doubt
Rhonda's chronicle https://wersquared.wordpress.com/
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12-27-2010, 03:19 PM
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#97
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Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Indiana
Posts: 424
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Hi Richard,
I've been there sooooo many times. We just completed an engine change on our sons Grand Caravan this weekend. Occaisionally as it's going back together I try to just "stand (or lay) and stare" at each component and fastener trying to determine if everything is in place. About 5 miles into the "test drive" I heard a clunk and saw a bolt bouncing down the road behind me.....Must be "spare parts" (probably a duplicate from the "new" engine/trans coupling) since everything has checked out OK.
Thanks for the update..I have shared in the "triumph and tragedy" of your experience.
__________________
1993 Newell 45'#316, 1976 Trans Am 455, 1967 GTO, 1953 Chevrolet 3105 (panel truck),1952 Chevrolet 3600,1969 Airstream Overlander. Always fixing something!
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12-27-2010, 05:15 PM
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#98
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Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Riverside, California
Posts: 1,543
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Well, Richard, at least it was something relatively easy to fix. Glad it was obvious. Looking forward to final resolution. Happy New Year!
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12-31-2010, 12:47 AM
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#99
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Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Huntington WV
Posts: 1,041
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I think I'm done.
I had to replace the tappets on those two rockers, and I took the time to go through all the valve and injector settings again just to be sure.
It fired and ran smoothly at the git go. No smoke, no roughness.
After I cleaned up my mess and put the bedroom back together, I drove the coach for about 60 miles. Plenty of power and no issues that I know of.
I got 30+ lbs of boost on one hill, so I think the turbo is turboing just fine.
I did notice the generator running a little rough and smoking today. I guess that's next.
Oh well, it's always something.
I can't wait to take her for a trip.
This has been some more adventure for me. I was thinking as I buttoned it up today, if I would do it again. Probably, but I wouldn't consider doing it outside in a storage yard. The location, and the WV winter did not add to the fun factor. The learning curve was steep, and I think I could do it in half the total hours if I had to do it again. Would I encourage another owner to take on something like this? If you are mechanically inclined, have a full complement of metric tools, and like getting really dirty, then the answer is yes.
As I worked on this project, I spent a lot of time on different diesel forums. Half of what I read scared me to death, and the other half was very informative. Here are some things I gleaned from several months of Series 60 internet research. I hope some of it is useful to you.
First, DD upgraded the head gasket and head bolts. There are some mechanics that suggest you replace bolts prior to engines made circa 2004 with the upgraded bolts. The only way to do that is remove the jakes and rocker arms. The only time it would make sense to do this is IF you are having the valves and injectors adjusted. DD now recommends this at 60,000 miles instead of the original 100,000 miles. I don't have any statistics on blown head gaskets, so I cannot tell you with any certainty if I would recommend you do this. But I repeat, DD came out with a new gasket and NEW head bolts which torque to a higher value. The engineer in me says they did that for some reason, not just because they were bored.
Second, if you pull the camshaft for any reason, use a NEW camshaft bolt. Apparently there has been a problem with the camshaft slipping relative to the camshaft gear. Even though it is pinned, apparently the pin can deform. If this happens, the engine goes out of time, which is not going to be a good thing.
Third, I have a big impact wrench, 1200 ft lbs. I used it a lot during disassembly of the bigger bolts. It was a good thing.
Fourth, I would have washed the valve train rockers and jakes with diesel and let the diesel drain into the oil pan. That would have washed away the used old oil. I can't tell you how nasty it was to take those off, but when I put them back on after I had cleaned them, it was a completely different story.
Fifth, I have the DD shop manual for the engine. Five bucks on the ebay. If you have a 60, get one. It's good reading.
Six, most shops charge around 100 bucks an hour. They are earning it.
Seven, there are no records of my engine ever having a tuneup. The tuneup is the adjustment of the valve lash and injector heights. I think I can separate my giddiness of the thing actually running from an objective eval of how strong it was running. I really do believe that the engine is running a little stronger now. What I don't know is if the increased oomph is from having the correct settings or from repairing the lost compression in the cracked liner. Like I said in a much earlier post in this thread, in hind site, I think this crack had been developing slowly for some time.
Eight, I am glad to move on to another project.
__________________
Richard Rhonda Ty and Alex Entrekin
1995 Newell # 390 DD Series 60, Allison World Trans
Subaru Outback toad
CoMotion Tandem
Often wrong, but seldom in doubt
Rhonda's chronicle https://wersquared.wordpress.com/
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12-31-2010, 02:55 AM
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#100
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Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Riverside, California
Posts: 1,543
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Excellent report, Richard!
__________________
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